[gourry187]

So the other players and I are trying to come up with our Fake SINs when it was brought up . . .
exactly what is in you SIN?  For that matter, when someone accesses your profile (via AR or VR) what information is listed?

[CanRay]

Spy Games, Page 143 shows exactly what's in a Fake SIN.

What's revealed to a person when they scan someone's SIN is based on their level of access.  A Peace Officer will get more info than John Q. Wageslave, for instance.

Most likely, the average person or store will get a name, address, CommCode (Phone Number for the CommLink), a message going "This person has a legitimate SIN", and any messages mandated by law (Such as "This Person Is A Sex Offender").

[desdinova81]

Most likely, the average person or store will get a name, address, CommCode (Phone Number for the CommLink), a message going "This person has a legitimate SIN", and any messages mandated by law (Such as "This Person Is A Sex Offender").

Unless you've really pissed off a good hacker lately... then they are more likely to get name, address, commcode, a message stating "This SIN is fake and should be reported to law enforcement instantly", a list of various non-humanoids you've had relations with, a list of people willing to pay for the SIN owners organs, and an indexed report of why the law enforcement officials who will soon be scanning this should make your life a living hell...

Maybe I've been reading too much BOFH lately lol

[baronspam]

So the other players and I are trying to come up with our Fake SINs when it was brought up . . .
exactly what is in you SIN?  For that matter, when someone accesses your profile (via AR or VR) what information is listed?

I think it depends on who is asking and how deep they are looking.  If you go to Stuffer Shack and buy a Double Thick Plum Smushie the clerk gets a comcode and a verficication the funds have transfered.  If a Knight Errant officer scans you they get  the eqivelent of looking at a real world ID:  Name, registered address, basic biometrics, and special licenses you have like firearms or restricted cyberware.  If there is a reason to look deeper he can run it through a verification system that starts checking various databases to make sure you are a real person.  Do you pay your taxes?  Are there education/military/employment/criminal records on you? Outstanding warrents?  Etc.  Bascially the better the fake Sin the more of this information has been fabricated, and the more authenic it looks if somone checks it out.

RAW, the test to see if a fake SIN or other fake document passes verification is an opposed test, the rating of the SIN/ID vs the rating of the Verification system.  The problem with this is that even a fairly good fake will get broken fairly quickly it it is checked often.  An alternative  house rule I have seen suggested is to used twice the rating of the verification system against a threshold of the rating of the fake SIN.  This way low end fakes are fairly easy to crack, but a good one (say level four or better) can stand up to typical checks.

[Irian]

exactly what is in you SIN?

Afaik, a SIN is a only number (not alphanumerical anymore, but still a number). The number itself contains not many informations - the import point are the entries in various databases that are linked to this number. This is why different people get different things to see: A shop owner simply hasn't got access to the databases where the person's criminal history is stored - a cop has. A shop can only ask the official SIN registry, if the person who uses the SIN really is the owner (by verifying fingerprint, etc.).

For a stuffer shack, much more important than the SIN verification is the response from the bank ("Transfer of x Nuyen done."). Of course, they will check the SIN, too, if something bad happens (in case of fraud, etc.), but the money transfer will probably be much more important than the level 1 SIN verification enforced by the shop's insurance company.

And yes, I like the scanner level x 2 (Threshold Fake SIN Level) house rule, makes much more sense. With the other rule, it's much too random.

[DireRadiant]

A SIN is a Number. That's all. You might be able to tell some things from the number depending on how the number is generated.

Identity Checks
- LEO asks SINner for SIN
- SINner hands it over
- LEO queries various data systems for data associated with that SIN
- For example they may get back basic data such as metatype, age, etc, which they can then match with what they see in front of them.
- LEO makes decision based on match

LEO gets SIN from SINner + thumbprint
LEO sends SIN and Thumbprint to ARES data source and asks if they match.
ARES data systems can have the following results
- No SIN found
- SIN found with no thumbprint match
- SIN and thumbprint match
- SIN not found but thumbprint matches a different SIN
ARES data system can answer as appropriate, it may simply give a YES/NO, or more details depending on who is asking.

Financial Transaction
- SINNer gives account authorization + SIN(If required, some accounts will not require a SIN to use, think numbered accounts)
- Shop sends account authorization and SIN
- Bannk verifies match
- Bank conducts transaction

The specifics of responses will vary, but will follow the general pattern collecting information, sending it to be verified, and getting a result back. the responses can be detailed, and the action performed after the response will vary, that's where you can have fun.

[Irian]

One problem that's often mentioned is: If you have two fake SINs - why don't both show up as soon as the cops take your fingerprints?

[DireRadiant]

One problem that's often mentioned is: If you have two fake SINs - why don't both show up as soon as the cops take your fingerprints?

Easy. the cops don't usually hit all systems. They will hit the common ones, or the ones they normally have access to.

If it's a person in front of them and they claim to be an Ares SINner and give a thumbprint the LEO will probably query the ARES system. They don't find a "duplicate" because they are only checking one system.

If the LEO is running a thumbprint from a crime scene, they may be only able to query their own system, or the local jurisdiction. For example in Seattle a KE officer might be able to query the local Seattle Metroplex system, UCAS, and possibly have access to ARES because of their ties to the megacorp. The thumbprint may be in "duplicated' by being in both Seattle Metroplex and Horizon, but Horizon isn't available to the KE Officer. In addition to that, the Horizon system might only offer a service to verify a thumbprint if both a Thumbprint and a SIN are provided. From a crime scene they might have only the thumbprint.

The KE Officer doesn't have access to all the identity systems they can check against in order to find that "duplicate".

The SIN while a universal number, is only to ensure a unique key across systems for verification purposes, it doesn't guarantee universal access to all data related to that SIN across all systems.

[Irian]

That implies that you only can have one fake SIN from every country, but you can never have two UCAS SINs, for example.

[bigity]

That implies that you only can have one fake SIN from every country, but you can never have two UCAS SINs, for example.

Duplicates maybe, but you could easily have different identities and some fake id.

[DireRadiant]

That implies that you only can have one fake SIN from every country, but you can never have two UCAS SINs, for example.

ARES
SIN 1 + Thumbprint 1
SIN 2 + Thumbprint 1
SIN 3 + Thumbprint 1

If the Question sent to the data(aka Verification) system is, "Do Thumbprint 1 and SIN 1 belong together?" The response is Yes. This will also work for the other combinations.

If the the system is asked "What SIN belongs to Thumbprint 1?" You will get 3 SINs. Obviously a problem.

If the System is asked, "What Thumbprint belongs to SIN 1?" You'll get thumbprint 1 . Not immediately a problem.

A verification system is likely to ask one of those questions, with the first one the most likely.

The entire set of available data is not made available at the device dedicated to specific requests. So while it would be quite clear to a dedicated analyst looking at all the information that there are some discrepancy, it is not immediately apparent for a standard verification protocol.

Do you have a Debit Card? When you go to the grocery store or the ATM, do you think your entire account details and transaction history are sent to that little card reader and touch screen? Is it necessary for most transactions that all that data is sent there? Is it even desirable? Part of your account details will contain a lot of your personal information, when all that is needed by the Grocery store or ATM is simply confirmation that the money is available for the transaction. That KE/LS officer with the SINner in front of them is simply looking a quick answer to see if there is a reason to proceed with detaining or moving on to the next item. BTW, that's how most of the current Law Enforcement data systems work. Field queries are simple systems. It's only in the office where dedicated analysts and investigators are that they go any deeper.

[Irian]

We're talking about Shadowrunners. ONE Fingerprint left on a run - all your SINs are suddenly dead?

[DireRadiant]

Just because something is possible does not mean it always happens.

I've already pointed out that it all depends on what questions are asked and if all data is made available and if the connections are made.

Whether or not it happens is up to you in your game. You can choose to make it impossible to play or not depending on your interpretations of the possible outcomes. I've merely explained the ranges of actions and possibilities to account for the fact that it is possible for Runners to easily get by verification checks just as easily as they can be caught if enough effort is made.

I run my game. Decide if Dice Test is warranted, Make Dice test. Use understanding of basics of process to explain/justify results.

I don't model my understanding of the SR universe on the game mechanics. The game mechanics are for story and conflict resolution, not a model world simulation.

In order for runners to be caught all the time on leaving a single piece of evidence there would need to be an additional set of conditions, infinite resources and infinite willingness to use them. If you are assuming that, then you may as well not play SR.

[Irian]

sorry, wrong (new) thread.

[Chrona]

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4020.0