[John Schmidt]

As for the repeated posting of the 'N' word. Enough of it already!

See what I mean.  Even when not used in any insulting or hostile way it freaks people out.  You can't even say the word to talk about the word.  A media figure can destroy their career over this word.

That was not freaking out and this is not your second day on the internet. There are certain =minimum= standards of behavior required here. If somebody repeatedly dropped the 'F' bomb here without adding to the discussion I would say something. It isn't that I am a prude...simply a bare =minimum= standard of conduct on a company website.

[baronspam]

As for the repeated posting of the 'N' word. Enough of it already!

See what I mean.  Even when not used in any insulting or hostile way it freaks people out.  You can't even say the word to talk about the word.  A media figure can destroy their career over this word.

That was not freaking out and this is not your second day on the internet. There are certain =minimum= standards of behavior required here. If somebody repeatedly dropped the 'F' bomb here without adding to the discussion I would say something. It isn't that I am a prude...simply a bare =minimum= standard of conduct on a company website.

I don't want to get on the bad side of the ban stick here, considering you are mod and all, but you are making my point for me.  It was a conversation about the complexity of using certain words in our society.  We didn't insult anyone.  We certainly didn't do anything "racist".  Just the appearance the word made you uncomfortable because you have been conditioned that is a horrible, horrible word to say.  But if you come to my home town and spend any time on the number 72 bus you will hear black people, who should be the most offended at the world, use it constantly, and I mean constantly, to refer to themselves, each other, and black people in general.  They seem fine with it, but if I say it I start a fight, probably could get fired at work, and attract the attention of a moderator on the website.  Doesn't that seem weird to you?  It seems weird to me.  And I think it is something that can/should be talked about.  Ok, maybe not on a RPG board, but in our society.

But we can't talk about it.  Its an utterly taboo subject.  You can't even bring it up.  You get accused of being a racist (not saying anyone did here, but it happens) if you call black people on this particular behavior.  And certainly not all black people, I know.  I doubt Dr. Gates at Harvard uses the N work much with his black students.  But the young black men on the 72 line certainly do.  Yet they would be the first to claim they were being targeted by hate speech if I used the word to refer to them.  Despite they fact they 30 seconds before they used the word to refer to themselves.  Such is the fantastic, illogical, double standard world we live in, where the worst possible crime is offending someone.

To tie this rant back to the original thread, Omae may very well work the same way in game.  Its an in group/out group thing.  Certain people can call you Omae, certain people can't.  Using it when you shouldn't might get you busted in the chops, or worse.  And to make matters worse, it is probably used sarcastically as well, by someone who has the "right" to use the word to someone who doesn't, in front of others who do.  Sort of like calling someone who isn't your homie "homie" to emphasize the face that they are not, in fact, your homie. 

Language is a fickle mistress.

By the way John, your comment on the F bomb, your company uses it in flavor text in your gaming products.  Being uncomfortable with it on your website would be another massive double standard.  You want to be "edgy" and all that with your gaming products, but you wouldn't accept the same language to discuss them?  I would spend some time thinking about that one.

[CanRay]

By the way John, your comment on the F bomb, your company uses it in flavor text in your gaming products.  Being uncomfortable with it on your website would be another massive double standard.  You want to be "edgy" and all that with your gaming products, but you wouldn't accept the same language to discuss them?  I would spend some time thinking about that one.

These forums are a public area, and, as such, need to be held to a higher standard than written work when it comes to "Family Friendly" situations.

As the "Offended" party, I have no issues with having been smacked down as such.  Basically, it's the Internet, there's children here, and if parents have an issue about what their kids read in books, they should be taking more of an issue in what they're buying and reading, damnit.  Harder to do on the Internet, considering how prevalent it's getting in households.

And the fact that a lot of parents are still of the, "I barely know how to use the this mouse thingie." stage of technological adoption.  Give it another Generation.

[baronspam]

By the way John, your comment on the F bomb, your company uses it in flavor text in your gaming products.  Being uncomfortable with it on your website would be another massive double standard.  You want to be "edgy" and all that with your gaming products, but you wouldn't accept the same language to discuss them?  I would spend some time thinking about that one.

These forums are a public area, and, as such, need to be held to a higher standard than written work when it comes to "Family Friendly" situations.

As the "Offended" party, I have no issues with having been smacked down as such.  Basically, it's the Internet, there's children here, and if parents have an issue about what their kids read in books, they should be taking more of an issue in what they're buying and reading, damnit.  Harder to do on the Internet, considering how prevalent it's getting in households.

And the fact that a lot of parents are still of the, "I barely know how to use the this mouse thingie." stage of technological adoption.  Give it another Generation.

And minors don't play RPGs?  Hey, its not that I want the forums to become a pit of profanity, I don't, but I am saying that if the editorial standards of the company are that you can put that word in a fictional character's mouth and publish it I don't think that you can argue too much that you are going to offend the very same group of people by using it on a forum.  This is a niche gaming forum.  The people who buy the books are going to be one ones posting and reading here, and the game developers think that the word is ok for the people who buy the books.  If anything, I bet they thought it was GOOD for sales to use a little salty language, make the game "edgy" and to stand out from the pack.  But now that we have your $20 for the pdf please don't use the same word here, you might offend someone.

Just saying, good for the goose good for the gander.

[FastJack]

Just to let you know, we (the moderators) were watching this thread carefully once the word showed up. We were VERY proud that the discussion was not degenerating like similar discussions have in the past. However, we also had to look at how some individual posts, taken out of context from the discussion, may have led a new reader/poster on the forums to be offended if they only skimmed the thread and didn't read the entire content.

I, personally, think you're doing a fine job discussing the issue, but I agree with John that repeated use of the word is not necessary for the discussion. We're pretty relaxed on the use some "vulgar" language on these boards, because it's not overly abused. In this case, the word being discussed was starting to be used more than necessary in regards to the discussion at hand, so John asked to cease use of the word, while encouraging discussion of the nature of the vulgarity.

[CanRay]

I, personally, think you're doing a fine job discussing the issue, but I agree with John that repeated use of the word is not necessary for the discussion. We're pretty relaxed on the use some "vulgar" language on these boards, because it's not overly abused. In this case, the word being discussed was starting to be used more than necessary in regards to the discussion at hand, so John asked to cease use of the word, while encouraging discussion of the nature of the vulgarity.

With that explanation, it's a fair cop.

I apologize for my actions, and will work harder to limit myself despite my usual posting standards.

[Critias]

And minors don't play RPGs?  Hey, its not that I want the forums to become a pit of profanity, I don't, but I am saying that if the editorial standards of the company are that you can put that word in a fictional character's mouth and publish it I don't think that you can argue too much that you are going to offend the very same group of people by using it on a forum.  This is a niche gaming forum.  The people who buy the books are going to be one ones posting and reading here, and the game developers think that the word is ok for the people who buy the books.  If anything, I bet they thought it was GOOD for sales to use a little salty language, make the game "edgy" and to stand out from the pack.  But now that we have your $20 for the pdf please don't use the same word here, you might offend someone.

Just saying, good for the goose good for the gander.

I'm not a moderator here, and I don't claim to be, or hold any aspirations towards ever being one, so the following is just general advice and personal opinion;  but a general rule of internet moderation is "shut up while you're still behind."  If a mod asks you to stop doing something, just stop doing it.  It ain't rocket science, man. 

If you feel the mod is out of line for asking you, take it to PMs and talk to them there.  The side of the road amidst traffic isn't the place to complain to the cop about the traffic ticket, and the middle of a potentially inflammatory thread isn't the place to complain to a moderator about politely being asked to change your language or to share your thesis about gratuitous vulgar language within the gaming industry as a whole.  If you have a problem with a mods call, take it up with that mod (or his boss) in private.  Don't kvetch about it in the thread you know the mods are already keeping an eye on, or you're just borrowing trouble.

[CanRay]

It might be rocket surgery, however...   

[Paeniteo Azrael]

And to think it all started with me complaining mildly about the use of omae. The threads, how they are a derailin'.

[CanRay]

*Looks at the sprawled bodies, the spilled toxic waste, and the mountain of goods all over the place from the derailment*  OH THE METAHUMANITY!!!

[FastJack]

And to think it all started with me complaining mildly about the use of omae. The threads, how they are a derailin'.

I don't think it's really been derailed as much as a common example has taken over.

[CyberNed]

Getting back to the original question, 'omae' is considered a very informal term, used mainly by those with close relationships with one another, like good friends. The thing to remember is that Japanese culture is very formal and hierarchical. If you were to speak with a Japanese person in Japan, and use the term omae, unless you were extremely close with the person in question, yes they would find it highly insulting because it indicates a level of familiarity that you probably don't have.

Pretend that you're an employee at a large corporation, and for some reason you are speaking with the president or CEO of the company. Think about how you would speak to such a person. Essentially, this is how the Japanese speak to each other, most of the time. In such cases, 'anata' would be the preferred pronoun (Though to be honest, if known, the opposite parties family name would be even more polite. Yes, this means that saying 'Mr. Suzuki has a very nice home' to Mr. Suzuki, is the most polite form of speaking.)

Between confidants (or slightly informal discussions between a superior party to an inferior one) however, omae is perfectly acceptable. The way the term is bandied around in shadowrun (usually between non-native Japanese who are not speaking Japanese) seems to me like 'amigo' or 'pal'. If any of the posters on Jackpoint were actually in a conversation with a Japanese person (and had bothered to read the sidebar in Corporate Guide regarding such interactions), they would probably curtail that linguistic quirk.

Disclaimer: my nihongo-fu is rusty as all get out, and the above should not be taken as complete gospel. Remember, google and fact-checking are your friends.