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Weapon Quality

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FastJack

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« Reply #30 on: <09-18-10/1127:34> »
If Deadliest Warrior can be believed (the science maybe, the rest... *shrug*), they showed how the katana could cut through an entire pig corpse (and the one beneath it, and into the third - Around 7:30). It does show how chain mail would stop the blade pretty well, of course...

Critias

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« Reply #31 on: <09-18-10/1216:21> »
More than "ZOMG, Katana!" I think the Katana got decent damage and a -1 AP because it's assumed to be a two-handed weapon.  Giving a -1 AP to reflect that you've got to use both hands (compared to the default "Sword") seems pretty reasonable to me;  better than another +1 damage, at least.

Chaotic Insane

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« Reply #32 on: <09-19-10/1541:29> »
If Deadliest Warrior can be believed (the science maybe, the rest... *shrug*), they showed how the katana could cut through an entire pig corpse (and the one beneath it, and into the third - Around 7:30). It does show how chain mail would stop the blade pretty well, of course...

And the weapons from Vlad The Impaler and... I think they were called the Rajput? were pretty damn close to it, too.
"People say I hate the living. It's not true. I just happen to see the potential inside all people; those great things anyone can do if they aren't trapped in their own consciousness and morals. And when I unlock that potential, death is the side-effect. I can't help that." - Dr. McMourning

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #33 on: <09-19-10/1802:49> »
I'd like to point out that a LOT of the "fancy mysterious" forging techniques developed in antiquity were to compensate for the quality of the alloys available in those eras.

I suspect that a modern alloy forged sword, even without the fancy secret techniques, will stand up to any of the ancient blades you might come across.



-karma

FastJack

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« Reply #34 on: <09-19-10/1948:40> »
I'd like to point out that a LOT of the "fancy mysterious" forging techniques developed in antiquity were to compensate for the quality of the alloys available in those eras.

I suspect that a modern alloy forged sword, even without the fancy secret techniques, will stand up to any of the ancient blades you might come across.



-karma
Not really true. Many of the techniques were structured to work the lesser alloys out of the metal, enhancing the perfection of the core metals. (Here).

Captain Chaos

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« Reply #35 on: <09-19-10/2047:41> »
Well, the magical part is taken into account when an Awakened character bonds with the weapon (gaining the power of the weapon focus as bonus die on to-hit attacks).

I agree that if you pay for quality, you should get it. I think there should be 4 levels of quality:

QualityAP Adj.CostDescription
Poor+125% of NormalEither it second-, third- or even fourth-hand used. It's seen a lot of time on the streets and it shows. But, hey, you get what you pay for. And what you paid for is a blunt, rusty blade.
Average+0NormalStraight from the store, still in it's wrapper. Love that new blade smell!
Mastercraft-110x NormalThis was lovingly crafted by hand (or a really high-end fabricator).
Legendary-2100x NormalMaybe by a master craftsmen, afficionados will recognize the maker's style upon examination. Only a few of these exist in the world.

What about nano-forged blades? By shaping the way the atoms bond, you can get copper as hard as steel, and steel alloys as hard as dimounds, not to mention what you can do with layered composites, super-alloys, and carbon Allotropes.

For 100,000 Nuyen, and some time with a nanoforge, I could turn out a sword much better than anything even a grandmaster swordsman could make.

Honestly, I don't get the "handmade with secret techniques" fetishism some people have. 

FastJack

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« Reply #36 on: <09-19-10/2211:44> »
You mean like the mono-filament swords with their blade edge one molecule wide? Those have the same statistics as a regular katana...

Critias

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« Reply #37 on: <09-19-10/2255:26> »
You mean like the mono-filament swords with their blade edge one molecule wide? Those have the same statistics as a regular katana...
But only take one hand.   ;)

Devil

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« Reply #38 on: <09-19-10/2324:16> »
The fact of the matter is that melee weapons don't make alot of sense in shadowrun. The Katar has AP-2 and the bayonet has no AP. Nodachis, which are just long katanas, have AP-2 also, while spears, kris blades, and swords have none. It's just stupid and whoever designed it didn't really know much about the use of melee weapons. They based it on what they thought was cool. I mean... a monofilament sword would tear the drek out of a katana blade.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #39 on: <09-20-10/0019:58> »
I'd like to point out that a LOT of the "fancy mysterious" forging techniques developed in antiquity were to compensate for the quality of the alloys available in those eras.

I suspect that a modern alloy forged sword, even without the fancy secret techniques, will stand up to any of the ancient blades you might come across.

Not really true. Many of the techniques were structured to work the lesser alloys out of the metal, enhancing the perfection of the core metals. (Here).
Er, how does what you said disagree with what I said?

They started out with lower quality metal alloys. The special forging techniques both helped to refine those alloys (mainly by adjusting carbon content), and created structural reinforcement due to the folding.

However, they simply did not have the kind smelting techniques we have today. A modern forged sword, even without folding techiques, is inherently going to have better metallurgical properties than the old steel. All that fancy folding to create specific ratios of metals and carbon just isn't needed these days, we can produce steel now that already has those properties to start with.

That's not even counting the modern metal alloys and treatments that have developed since then. Vanadium, titanium, tungsten, cobalt, magnesium, etc. - most of these things were unknown to steel alloying before the 1800s. There's heat treatments and hardening techniques developed in the last century that could fill textbooks.

Heck, I'll take a sword hammered out of a truck leaf-spring against a Damascus blade or katana.


-karma

FastJack

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« Reply #40 on: <09-20-10/0029:19> »
You mean like the mono-filament swords with their blade edge one molecule wide? Those have the same statistics as a regular katana...
But only take one hand.   ;)
You have a point there. Also, I just noticed that the description for the Monosword says it's a Broadsword with Monofilament wire strung along the edge of its blade. So, would a monofilament katana be a -2 AP? :P

The fact of the matter is that melee weapons don't make alot of sense in shadowrun. The Katar has AP-2 and the bayonet has no AP. Nodachis, which are just long katanas, have AP-2 also, while spears, kris blades, and swords have none. It's just stupid and whoever designed it didn't really know much about the use of melee weapons. They based it on what they thought was cool. I mean... a monofilament sword would tear the drek out of a katana blade.
Katars (or punching dagger) are more vicious to armor since it's a piercing weapon and not a slashing weapon like the katana/sword. And Nodaichis (and other large weapons) have more chance of cutting through armor since the have the longer blade. Think of it this way, take a loaf of bread and see how deep you can slice into with one stroke of a steak knife (4" blade) versus one stroke of a 12" chef's knife.

And, regarding the monofilament versus a katana blade...

Quote from: Street Samurai Catalog, p. 6
>>>>>[Don't buy the hype, kiddies. Remember, this ain't a real monomolecular line we're talking about here. Sure, it may be monofilament, but so what? My sneaker lace is monofilament, too, but you don't see me lopping any limbs off with that!]<<<<<
     -- Hermes <08:17:30/11-28-50>

FastJack

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« Reply #41 on: <09-20-10/0032:32> »
I'd like to point out that a LOT of the "fancy mysterious" forging techniques developed in antiquity were to compensate for the quality of the alloys available in those eras.

I suspect that a modern alloy forged sword, even without the fancy secret techniques, will stand up to any of the ancient blades you might come across.

Not really true. Many of the techniques were structured to work the lesser alloys out of the metal, enhancing the perfection of the core metals. (Here).
Er, how does what you said disagree with what I said?

They started out with lower quality metal alloys. The special forging techniques both helped to refine those alloys (mainly by adjusting carbon content), and created structural reinforcement due to the folding.

However, they simply did not have the kind smelting techniques we have today. A modern forged sword, even without folding techiques, is inherently going to have better metallurgical properties than the old steel. All that fancy folding to create specific ratios of metals and carbon just isn't needed these days, we can produce steel now that already has those properties to start with.

That's not even counting the modern metal alloys and treatments that have developed since then. Vanadium, titanium, tungsten, cobalt, magnesium, etc. - most of these things were unknown to steel alloying before the 1800s. There's heat treatments and hardening techniques developed in the last century that could fill textbooks.

Heck, I'll take a sword hammered out of a truck leaf-spring against a Damascus blade or katana.


-karma
Those same metal alloys are now also available to the master craftsman. Folding is proven to be stronger than a cast/pressed blade. I do agree that there are machines that would be able to created a forged/folded blade, so it could be on the same level of a master craftsman.

But for me, I'd still trust the hand-made blade over the machine-crafted one seven days a week and twice on Sunday. But that's my own preference.

Devil

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« Reply #42 on: <09-20-10/0104:50> »
Your explanation for Katars being -2 is that they are piercing? what about all the other piercing weapons with no AP? What about the spear?  or the bayonet? both used two handed. What about the rapier, which was designed to enter the weak points of armor? It's not -2. I've wielded a katar and they are nothing special. Despite what you might think...punching motions with one hand are not stronger than thrusting a spear with two hands.

anotherJack

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« Reply #43 on: <09-20-10/0549:27> »
You can see too the AP as a way to "modulate" the DV without giving a complete extra DV.
The ability to pierce armor and to cut something, physically speaking not very different.
1AP = 1/3 DV statisticly speaking.
Me am french, me am not speaking good english, but me am trying to correct this.

FastJack

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« Reply #44 on: <09-20-10/0912:36> »
Your explanation for Katars being -2 is that they are piercing? what about all the other piercing weapons with no AP? What about the spear?  or the bayonet? both used two handed. What about the rapier, which was designed to enter the weak points of armor? It's not -2. I've wielded a katar and they are nothing special. Despite what you might think...punching motions with one hand are not stronger than thrusting a spear with two hands.
I'm just giving out a possible explanation for the rules in the game world. Rules will almost NEVER imitate real life. You have to remember that the statistics of the weapons are created so they are balanced for game use. Otherwise, be prepared to have the damage codes of weapons go way up. A regular kitchen knife might have a DV of (Str+3)P if the game wasn't trying to create a more cinematic combat style.