[kirk]

Oh I can believe it. I still look at some SR guns and wonder exactly HOW they work. The Browning Ultra-power and Colt Manhunter for example: where exactly is the ejection ports for the shells? And where exactly IS the magazine (don't get me started on calling them 'clips') on the Colt L36? (OK, I'll forgive the L36 as it's a re-used design from somewhere else.)

And a lot of the rifles from Gun Haven looked really...uncomfortable to use from a shooter POV, not to mention seem a bit clumsy. *shrugs*. Nice stats though.

OK, Ill stop there. I feel a rant coming on.

Actually, once I figured out what was going on I accepted the magazine vs clip label.
Magazine is a fixed magazine, like the tube magazine found on many lever action rifles or pump-action shotguns.
Clip is a removable magazine.

By using and "enforcing" the different label it actually reduces long-term confusion for most players. Annoying, sure, but it actually makes sense.

Hate to say it, but that's most definitely the wrong definition of "clip" vs "magazine"

A magazine is a device used to actively feed a firearm during firing. Whether it's the magazine of an AK-47 or a 9mm Beretta, it's a magazine.

A clip is a loading aid, used to assist in the loading of a guns fixed magazine or detachable magazine. For example, a Russian SKS assault rifle does not have a detachable magazine, but instead uses a 10-round stripper clip to feed ammo into the magazine directly.

Yes, in the real world, you're right. It doesn't, however, change what I said. It works for the shadowrun people to easily clarify whether the weapon has a fixed or detachable magazine. As I said, I know the difference, and it bothered me till I figured out what was going on.  If it truly bothers you that much, be a pedant in your games.

Of course, over the years I've quit being as pedantic. The purpose of word use is communication, and insisting people use the head instead of the bathroom can lead to some nasty accidents.

[JoeNapalm]

I've seen the clip/magazine thing pop up a LOT here and on Dumpshock and, usually, there's two types of people in the discussion. Those that want to make sure everyone understands the difference between a magazine and a clip, and how they are totally different and unique terms.

And those that really just don't care.

Yes, being willfully ignorant is an inalienable right.

Way to go, apathetic benighted masses!

 

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[EmperorPenguin]

I don't think it's fair to apply 'wilful ignorance' and 'apathy' to technical terms.

If you work in the applicable industry, or have a high level of personal interest, it's important to know your terms.  This applies to firearms, agriculture, vehicles, finance, manufacturing, service, IT, transportation, sanitation, etc.

I think the people Fastjack are referring to are simply those that aren't interested in or required to know these terms.  And that is (or should be) totally fine.  It probably won't affect the degree of success they have in life.

[CanRay]

Yeah, you say that now.  Wait until the Zombies come and the difference can be life or death!

You use a Clip on a SMLE, you use a Magazine on a C7! 

That said, you're willing to GM for me, so I'll shut up now.

[EmperorPenguin]

Haha!  I almost included as a last line:

"And please don't use the 'preparedness for inevitable zombie apocalypse' as a counter argument."

If the zombies are coming over the barricade and I yell for another clip, please don't turn around and correct me.  It's a high-stress situation and I haven't received any training.

Also, we're out of both magazines AND clips.  Zombie apocalypse, duh.

[kirk]

The problem with pedantry is it can be tripped.

Consider the Garand. You insert the en bloc clip into the (fixed) magazine. When the last bullet was fired the clip is ejected.

SOME clips - most of them today - are loading clips aka stripper clips. But some clips such as the en bloc clip behave remarkably like detachable magazines.

Second point. Languages change. English is particularly bad about  this. Words get borrowed. Their meaning changes. (Awful used to mean awe-inspiring, not terrible.) The changes can happen in less than a decade. (Bad took about five years to pick up its slang meaning of awesome.)

The key, as already stated, is that language is a communication tool. To effectively communicate a word must mean the same to speaker and listener. For the shadowrun community as a whole, clip and magazine have a commonly understood meaning. That meaning is different from that as assigned by current pistol and rifle experts. For that matter, clip and magazine mean yet another thing when speaking to artillerymen or naval gunners.

So when you're talking to your fellow shooters at the range or in the field, feel free to be annoyed when one of them uses "clip" to refer to a magazine. Outside that community, however, FastJack had exactly the right attitude.

[JoeNapalm]

The problem with pedantry is it can be tripped.

Consider the Garand. You insert the en bloc clip into the (fixed) magazine. When the last bullet was fired the clip is ejected.

SOME clips - most of them today - are loading clips aka stripper clips. But some clips such as the en bloc clip behave remarkably like detachable magazines.

Second point. Languages change. English is particularly bad about  this. Words get borrowed. Their meaning changes. (Awful used to mean awe-inspiring, not terrible.) The changes can happen in less than a decade. (Bad took about five years to pick up its slang meaning of awesome.)

The key, as already stated, is that language is a communication tool. To effectively communicate a word must mean the same to speaker and listener. For the shadowrun community as a whole, clip and magazine have a commonly understood meaning. That meaning is different from that as assigned by current pistol and rifle experts. For that matter, clip and magazine mean yet another thing when speaking to artillerymen or naval gunners.

So when you're talking to your fellow shooters at the range or in the field, feel free to be annoyed when one of them uses "clip" to refer to a magazine. Outside that community, however, FastJack had exactly the right attitude.

Now who's being pedantic? 

An M1 uses a clip...whether it's an en bloc or a stripper clip or a half-moon, they're all clips and behave like clips. Clips load magazines.

The simple fact is that they used the wrong terms in the Shadowrun books, so that's what the community uses. If the books used the right term, the community would use the right terms. They got "katana" right in the books, and nobody says "Samurai sword" that I've seen, despite all of the Street Samurai running around.

Linguists may argue that "common usage" is just as valid as the correct usage of a word by an expert. Anyone other than a linguist generally accepts that there is a right and a wrong way to use a word, and the expert trumps the layman.

What I don't get is all of the pushback on this topic. If I were calling a fuel injector a carburetor, and someone explained the difference, I doubt it would be torch and pitchfork time...but correct someone on the difference between a magazine and a clip around here, and it's Holy War.

I don't think anyone (other than kirk  ) is arguing as to which usage is correct - the most basic research will quickly determine which is the proper usage. For some reason, though, there's a lot of discussion as to whether people should use the words correctly. I find that baffling.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[kirk]

(shrug) went off because it looked like you did. Something about "apathetic" and "willfully ignorant", and annoyance that a magazine and a clip are different.

Having loaded and fired the garand a few times, from the user point of view (other than the banged up thumb and direction of load) there's no functional difference between its clip and the M-16's magazine.

[JoeNapalm]

Just to give folks who might not be more than passingly familiar with things like hyperbole and auxesis a hand...

...if I use phrases like "apathetic benighted masses" I am probably engaging in a form of rhetoric involving exaggeration, rather than literal interpretation.

This is often accompanied with a colorful emoticon, as a notice to the unwary, such as this "" or " ".

    ( <- Simulated effects of hyberbole in a properly controlled environment (read left to right) )

I am also sleep deprived, so my hyberbolizer might be a few degrees off top dead-center.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[kirk]

Just to give folks who might not be more than passingly familiar with things like hyperbole and auxesis a hand...

...if I use phrases like "apathetic benighted masses" I am probably engaging in a form of rhetoric involving exaggeration, rather than literal interpretation.

This is often accompanied with a colorful emoticon, as a notice to the unwary, such as this "" or " ".

    ( <- Simulated effects of hyberbole in a properly controlled environment (read left to right) )

I am also sleep deprived, so my hyberbolizer might be a few degrees off top dead-center.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

Hmm. Or perhaps i need to clean my glasses.   

[Weldûn]

What did you like about Gun Heaven?

What I loved most about this product, after finally getting my hands (fig) on it, is that it's presentation style has gone back to the old 1^st and 2^nd edition style. Each piece has it's own page, with some game information on it and then the shadowtalk to help place the item in context. I think the last thing I saw that in was Fields of Fire.

For those who are curious as to how long I've been playing this game, I still have my copy Shadowbeat.

[CanRay]

Yes, I loves me my Gun Porn!    And Drone Porn.    And Boat Porn.    And Aircraft Porn. 

When we getting the Car Porn? 

[Mystic]

I really don't mind when people who honestly have no idea about weapons, other than what they see in movies on TV or watnot, make the mistakes. What does irritate me is either when said aforementioned people try and sound like experts and diss others who ARE.  Ignorance I can forgive, stupidity, not so much.

Thank you, someone else can have the soapbox back now.

 

[Weldûn]

Ignorance can be cured, although ofttimes with significant effort. Supidity... well, we'll have to wait for Encephalons and Cerebral Boosters before we can really do anything about that.

[Mystic]

Ignorance can be cured, although ofttimes with significant effort. Supidity... well, we'll have to wait for Encephalons and Cerebral Boosters before we can really do anything about that.

Ignorance is nothing more than simply not knowing. Everyone is ignorant of something, at some point in their lives. For me arrogance is hand in hand with those who choose not to even try and become non-ignorant because they think they are right and flat out refuse to even consider they may in fact be ignorant of the subject. *shrugs*.

But anyway, has anyone used any of the new guns from GH in any of their games?