[kirk]

Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.

The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.

But that same argument applies to armor and matrix and a host of other items as well. If I wanted to play Ice Crown's ShadowCharts, I can. But I don't want to check across half a dozen tables to cross-reference .22 magnum fmj against interceptor with medium ceramic reinforcements.  For that matter I don't want to get mired in the fact that an axe, a dagger, a mace, and a chain each do different types of damage such that what will stop one won't stop another.

The handwave works for me, even though I know a little bit about these things; even though sometimes I have to blink at an occasional consequence of the handwave.

[CanRay]

It also completely ignored old skool battle rifles.

...

Oh, no, wait, there they are.  Under hunting rifles.  Never mind.

[JoeNapalm]

Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.

The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.

But that same argument applies to armor and matrix and a host of other items as well. If I wanted to play Ice Crown's ShadowCharts, I can. But I don't want to check across half a dozen tables to cross-reference .22 magnum fmj against interceptor with medium ceramic reinforcements.  For that matter I don't want to get mired in the fact that an axe, a dagger, a mace, and a chain each do different types of damage such that what will stop one won't stop another.

The handwave works for me, even though I know a little bit about these things; even though sometimes I have to blink at an occasional consequence of the handwave.

There's a difference between precision and accuracy.

Using the correct terminology and classifications, within the existing framework, doesn't increase complexity. They wouldn't need to add any tables or rules to call a magazine a magazine or classify a carbine as a rifle.

The system is abstract, not meant to be a simulation. Nor do I expect the authors to be retired SF Operators. Just noting that some basic definitions were not researched before they were applied. The size of the round has a lot more to do with weapon classification than the size of the weapon, and clips have been passé since the Korean War.

Note: I really like Gun Haven. Other rules get critiqued. Not intended as an indictment of the splatbook.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[CanRay]

So, what is needed is a Carbine rank of firearms, rather than jumping from SMG to Assault Rifles, eh?

[Cass100199]

Really not even that. Just adjust carbines to AR damage and slightly better conceal ability. Maybe a point less of recoil comp since the buffers are smaller.

[Critias]

A lot of the issue (size of weapon = damage) is part of traditional RPG game balancing factors, too, though.  Along the same vein you've got stuff like (cost of weapon = damage) or, especially in Shadowrun, (rarity of weapon = damage) is a long-running feature that's not necessarily true in real life.  Heck, you can pick up a cheap 12 gauge at Wally World for $150 or so, and a tricked out .22 for competition shooting can go for ten times that and a waiting list (not even counting antiques or collector pieces).

Sometimes it's not necessarily a lack of research, but a game balance conceit.  Certainly not every time, mind you, but it's a bit of an RPG tradition by now.

[CanRay]

One of the old Final Fantasy games on the GameBoy (The original one, the brick!) had a "Glass Sword".  Great damage, useable times:  Once.

[Deliverator]

A battle rifle is a full length rifle specifically designed for war... that is what it is. An assault rifle is a SELECT FIRE, SHORT BARRELED(relatively), INTERMEDIATE CALIBER rifle specifically designed for war.
M14 - Battle Rifle
Enfield - Battle Rifle
K98 - Battle Rifle
FN FAL(semi-auto only version) - Battle Rifle
M4/M16 - Assault Rifle.
AK-47/AKM/AK-74 - Assault Rifle
G36 - Assault Rifle
STG/MP44 - Assault Rifle

[CanRay]

In WWI:  The Germans had the best sporting rifle.  The Russians had the best hunting rifle.  The British had the best battle rifle.  And the Canadians...  Had something that blew up in their faces and jammed if it got the least bit dirty, and came with a entrenching tool with a hole in the middle to rest the rifle in. 

[Critias]

A battle rifle is a full length rifle specifically designed for war... that is what it is. An assault rifle is a SELECT FIRE, SHORT BARRELED(relatively), INTERMEDIATE CALIBER rifle specifically designed for war.
M14 - Battle Rifle
Enfield - Battle Rifle
K98 - Battle Rifle
FN FAL(semi-auto only version) - Battle Rifle
M4/M16 - Assault Rifle.
AK-47/AKM/AK-74 - Assault Rifle
G36 - Assault Rifle
STG/MP44 - Assault Rifle

In real life, yes.  In game, not so much.  Some of them were out (and had been out for three editions) prior to the "Battle Rifle" class of weapons existing in Shadowrun.  Others (like the Enfield and the K98) would likely be classed in-game as Sport Rifles, due to rate of fire stats.

[CanRay]

Rate of fire and type of ammo used.  Civilian cased rounds, how 20th century!

[Cass100199]

Let's see...AK47 is a 7.62. The SCAR and ACR can be chambered for 5.56 and 7.62. The AR15 family encompasses 5.56 and 7.62.the FN FAL can be found in 5.56. The Lee and Enfield fires a smaller round than an AK. The distinction between a "battle rifle" and "assault rifle" is shallow at best, especially when trying to draw distinctions based on size or caliber.

Inconsistecy aside, the examples of battle rifles in game don't follow your argued definition. A SCAR is under battle rifle, but not the AK. The weapons categorization was most definitely poorly researched and lazily put together.

[CanRay]

.303 British Service (The round for the Short-Magazine-Lee-Enfield) is 7.7X56mm (Rimmed).  The M1 Garand uses the .30-06 Springfield, which is 7.62x63mm.  The AK-47/AKM round is 7.62mm Soviet, 7.62x39mm.  The 5.56mm NATO is 5.56x45mm while the 7.62mm NATO is 7.62x51mm.

Now, things get confusing as the differences in brass and powder used at different times gives different ballistics, as well as age and denaturing of old ammunition.

Finally, those are all Cased (Brass) ammunition.  Shadowrun has Caseless as the standard for at least military firearms, which means there'd be new calibers, new changes in powder charge, and so on.  A lack of named calibers means that we can't make any decisions based on the new firearms at all.  Older ones, a bit more, but even then...  What kind of quality of ammo is available in the 2050s-2070s?  Old stuff that's getting older?  New stuff that's made on the cheap?  Handloaded brass from small cottage industries (Like the Reserve that makes ammo for the Sons of Anarchy amongst other things)?

[Weldûn]

Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.

The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.

But that same argument applies to armor and matrix and a host of other items as well. If I wanted to play Ice Crown's ShadowCharts, I can. But I don't want to check across half a dozen tables to cross-reference .22 magnum fmj against interceptor with medium ceramic reinforcements.  For that matter I don't want to get mired in the fact that an axe, a dagger, a mace, and a chain each do different types of damage such that what will stop one won't stop another.

The handwave works for me, even though I know a little bit about these things; even though sometimes I have to blink at an occasional consequence of the handwave.

There's a difference between precision and accuracy.

Using the correct terminology and classifications, within the existing framework, doesn't increase complexity. They wouldn't need to add any tables or rules to call a magazine a magazine or classify a carbine as a rifle.

The system is abstract, not meant to be a simulation. Nor do I expect the authors to be retired SF Operators. Just noting that some basic definitions were not researched before they were applied. The size of the round has a lot more to do with weapon classification than the size of the weapon, and clips have been passé since the Korean War.

Note: I really like Gun Haven. Other rules get critiqued. Not intended as an indictment of the splatbook.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

And here we come to the crux of it. Yes, there will be inaccuracies, because the system used abstract rules to generalize events and their effects. My mantra when playing Shadowrun has always been "It's a cinematic system, it uses movie physics and logic, not the real-worlds". It's like when I'm running Mekton Zeta and a character falls 6 meters. They are "winded and loose one action". 6 meters. That's 20ft. No damage, just the wind knocked out of them and a loss of 5 seconds of activity. Why? Because it's an anime action RPG.

[FastJack]

I know, right?

Like, how can you claim a +12 Vorpal Hackmaster isn't keen unless you specifically put the Keen power on the sword? It's VORPAL. It automatically beheads creatures on a natural twenty! Are you telling me it doesn't have a better critical range than a regular +12 Hackmaster?

[/sarcasm]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. IT IS A GAME. If you want to play ultra-realistic firearms, feel free to create the rules for them. Most people play the game and consider it two steps above pointing your finger at somebody and saying "BANG!" with the intention of that person playing dead.