[CanRay]

Concerned person is legitimately concerned.

And he called me on things when I was going too far.  And was right to do so.  I thanked him.

"Be polite.  Be efficient.  Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." - The Sniper

[Weldûn]

Allow me to preface this by stating that the reason I bring this up is Weldûn's assertion that Gun Haven is written in such a way that requires the reader to be a gun enthusiast.

That's not exactly what I said, but close. What I mean is, not everyone is going to know, off the top of their heads, that the M4 is a real world gun. Okay, you also don't have to be a gun enthusiast to know it either, but that's not the point. THE POINT, is that due to the layout, some people might get tripped up and buy a gun that's not all that good. Some might say that they deserve what they get, but in the end these are games and some players can only really spare the couple hours they spend playing the game, not researching every weapon and mod.

[Patrick Goodman]

The problem is that people spend all of their lives being saturated by Hollywood with misleading information about firearms, and they start to believe it. Most people spend more of their lives watching inaccurate stuff about weapons than they do on their entire education. Point out particular bit of bullcrap, and it's like blasphemy.

Blowback is a myth, people. Glocks don't have hammers, no matter how cool it is to cock it back when you enter the room. When you rack the last shell out of your shotgun for dramatic effect, you're left with an empty shotgun. You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.

I've had some firearms training, though I'm far from an expert, and I know the difference between myth and reality.

That said, I stick with myth for this venue. You know why? It's a game, and the Hollywood image is a helluva lot more fun to put into a game than reality is. I get enough reality in...well, reality. I have a job I really, really dislike most of the time, I'm married with two kids and not enough money, and I'm going back to college. I don't need reality imposing itself overmuch in my escape from reality.

Which is one of the reasons I was really hoping this topic would die out, or return to what the thread started out about: the weapons in Gun Heaven. Not because I think guys like you or CanRay are wrong (from the pure technical standpoint, you're all absolutely correct), but because it's just a game and this sort of discussion, in the end, is utterly worthless. The game terminology is probably not going to change, nor should it, IMNSHO. All these discussions ever do is stir things up to no good end.

Which all a lot of words more than I ever wanted or planned to contribute to this part of the thread, but sometimes I feel like things force my hand.

[Critias]

Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.

Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.

No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to.  You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it.  Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?

  Concerned scold is concerned.

Hey, it's your warning level, reputation, and pattern of behavior, buddy, not mine.  I'm trying to let you know -- before a moderator does -- that you're coming off like a prick, that's all.  You want to keep on pricking the place up, by being a prick to me while I try to let you know?  That's on you.  But don't go crying about heavy-handed moderation or whining about how your precious thread got locked, when the inevitable happens because of the chip on your shoulder, again.  You've got no one to blame but yourself and the ToS you willingly signed to create an account, pal.

[Cass100199]

Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.

Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.

No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to.  You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it.  Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?

  Concerned scold is concerned.

Hey, it's your warning level, reputation, and pattern of behavior, buddy, not mine.  I'm trying to let you know -- before a moderator does -- that you're coming off like a prick, that's all.  You want to keep on pricking the place up, by being a prick to me while I try to let you know?  That's on you.  But don't go crying about heavy-handed moderation or whining about how your precious thread got locked, when the inevitable happens because of the chip on your shoulder, again.  You've got no one to blame but yourself and the ToS you willingly signed to create an account, pal.

  blah, blah, blah....you weren't worth my original response.

[CanRay]

That said, I stick with myth for this venue. You know why? It's a game, and the Hollywood image is a helluva lot more fun to put into a game than reality is. I get enough reality in...well, reality. I have a job I really, really dislike most of the time, I'm married with two kids and not enough money, and I'm going back to college. I don't need reality imposing itself overmuch in my escape from reality.

OK man, sorry.  Just something I have a passion for and sometimes it gets the better of me.

Wasn't there a movie that was entirely a wageslave's escape during his lunch break and was a killer-a action movie, and purposefully made mistakes about firearms and such?  Wish I could remember it, I wanted to see it, but then...

SHINY!!!

[JM_Hardy]

First, let's condense a series of responses:

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.

  Concerned scold is concerned.

  blah, blah, blah....you weren't worth my original response.

Then, let's switch to red text:

From the TOS: "Rule 1. Play nice. When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect."

Those responses are not indicative of much respect. Cass100199, this is a warning. Please review the Terms of Service and follow them. Thanks!

Jason H.

[CanRay]

Thank you Jason.

Let's get back to the shooting of people in the face with these new firearms, shall we?

EDIT:  For fiscal rewards, of course!

[Cass100199]

First, let's condense a series of responses:

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.

  Concerned scold is concerned.

  blah, blah, blah....you weren't worth my original response.

Then, let's switch to red text:

From the TOS: "Rule 1. Play nice. When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect."

Those responses are not indicative of much respect. Cass100199, this is a warning. Please review the Terms of Service and follow them. Thanks!

Jason H.

No problem. And I'll admit, when Critias started threadjacking and got the vapors I should have asked him to go PM. I'll be more cognizant next time.

[Mäx]

The defining characteristic of a submachinegun is that it uses pistol ammunition. Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

I would say that it demonstrates that the writer clearly know it's not actully an SMG, witch gets as to your second poin

The "game mechanic" thing had occurred to me, except that it still doesn't make any sense. The M4 uses rifle ammo, and therefore the combat stats are that of a rifle. Why classify it as an SMG then correct all of the combat stats? Why not just classify it as an AR and adjust the Concealment? It has a folding stock...which gives it the bonus to concealment. If they gave it the Reduced Barrel mod, it would round it out nicely (and realistically).

Actually it has it's very own combat stats that are unique to it, so for that the SMG or AR makes no difference(except that  SMG doing more damage then normal is easily explained by the note about using rifle ammo, where as AR having different AP because of shorter barrel doesn't really fit the system)
NAd classifying it as SMG is much simpler then giving it a concealment bonus, especially as carbines have always been classified aas SMG:S in the game

[Cass100199]

They really should have just seperated them out as another class. And this goes back to where we were a few pages ago, why couldn't the writer and artists be bothered to do some research before churning things out?

[Mäx]

They really should have just seperated them out as another class. And this goes back to where we were a few pages ago, why couldn't the writer and artists be bothered to do some research before churning things out?

How on earth does the fact that they didn't want to add one more separate weapon class mean they didn't bother to do any research?

[Patrick Goodman]

That said, I stick with myth for this venue. You know why? It's a game, and the Hollywood image is a helluva lot more fun to put into a game than reality is. I get enough reality in...well, reality. I have a job I really, really dislike most of the time, I'm married with two kids and not enough money, and I'm going back to college. I don't need reality imposing itself overmuch in my escape from reality.

OK man, sorry.  Just something I have a passion for and sometimes it gets the better of me.

No harm, no foul, Ray. I'm sure I do things of this nature in some other venue and people want me to shut the hell up (heights, weights, and body dimensions come to mind). And honestly, I usually just ignore it. Every now and then, though, I feel compelled to open my yap and say something and try to remind people that they're getting way too serious about a game.

Sometimes I even manage to remember that I do it too, so like I said...no harm, no foul.

Wasn't there a movie that was entirely a wageslave's escape during his lunch break and was a killer-a action movie, and purposefully made mistakes about firearms and such?  Wish I could remember it, I wanted to see it, but then...

SHINY!!!

Sounds familiar, but I also can't recall a title, and largely for the same....SQUIRREL!!

[JoeNapalm]

You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.

While I appreciate the overall sentiment and agree with most of your post, I've gotta take issue with these last two, because the exceptions to them are vaguely amusing. 

Sometimes folks have had their weapons shot out of their hands (because generally when two guys are standing there aiming guns at each other, often it's the gun/hands/arms that are in the way!), albeit not necessarily on purpose.  So you CAN shoot the weapon out of the other fella's hands, but normally it happens just because his weapon is between your gun and his brain or heart or lungs or something. 

And sometimes, in some situations, people have shot to wound.  Civilians during a self defense scenario?  Absolutely not.  Cops?  Again, not likely.  But for a while the Israelis had guys with tricked out Ruger 10/22s, for instance, whose job was "riot suppression" by plinking at the legs of troublemakers to take the fight out of 'em.  It turned out to be too effective (in that the rioters ended up dying too often), as I understand it...but, hey, it's not quite a "never, ever," if someone as hardcore as the Israeli military's doing it. 

While, indeed, amusing...you do realize that those "exceptions" are full of fail?    I guess I could have worded my rant differently...you're welcome to do those things, but your results may be sub-optimal. 


Mäx:
 
As the defining characteristic of an SMG is the use of pistol ammunition, it makes a lot more sense to me to make the M4 a rifle (which it is) rather than an SMG (which it is not). In game terms, Damage is normalized across weapon classes. It makes a lot more sense to include the M4 in the AR class - because it's an AR that does AR damage - rather than shoehorn it into the SMG class and then change it back to AR damage with a footnote explaining why...even ignoring the fact that the explanation given for why it doesn't do the same Damage as other SMGs is because it's not an SMG.

That's precisely what "it uses rifle ammo" actually means.

Your interpretation is obviously different than mine if you think they knew what they were doing. I can agree to disagree - my GM is a nationally ranked 1000-yard shooter, so I am pretty sure I can convince him to fix the classifications in our game so that those Specializing in ARs don't get screwed over by carbines being in the wrong weapon class.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[Cass100199]

Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.

The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.