[Weldûn]

Man have we gone off topic!

Yes, let's get back to the topic at hand before this thread get's shut down by a moderator, shall we?

As I said earlier, I had recently acquired Gun Heaven and liked the shadowtalk for each item, which helps place the item in context with the rest of the world. I've since gotten several of the other tech expansions and found them to have the same format, which I'm very happy about. But, I wasn't happy with how new guns where scattered throughout the old guns. My problem wasn't that they were in there at all, just that i would have preferred a clearer separation. Not everyone who's a Shadowrun gun-lover is a real world gun-lover, so they have to pay careful attention to the standard modifications least they select an outmoded, real-world gun without realizing it. Yes, there are arguments that the product is for the gun enthusiast, but not every who plays one is one in real life, nor do they necessarily have the inclination.

[JoeNapalm]

 

Only gun enthusiasts can be bothered to read the list of standard mods on a weapon?

We have one of those in our group...we tell him how many dice to roll and point him toward the bad guys. 

Being a "gun enthusiast" has nothing to do with it. Heck, Gun Haven listed the M4 as an SMG, then adds an asterisk to state that it uses rifle ammo. I love SR, I really do...but having real world firearms knowledge is NOT a requirement.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Mäx]

Being a "gun enthusiast" has nothing to do with it. Heck, Gun Haven listed the M4 as an SMG, then adds an asterisk to state that it uses rifle ammo. I love SR, I really do...but having real world firearms knowledge is NOT a requirement.

Well thats probably mostly about the size of the weapon, after all the carbine version is closer in size to a SMG then full-size AR ,classifying it as an SMG makes it use the concealibility modifier for that  and SMG specialization rather then AR specialization.,

[JoeNapalm]

Being a "gun enthusiast" has nothing to do with it. Heck, Gun Haven listed the M4 as an SMG, then adds an asterisk to state that it uses rifle ammo. I love SR, I really do...but having real world firearms knowledge is NOT a requirement.

Well thats probably mostly about the size of the weapon, after all the carbine version is closer in size to a SMG then full-size AR ,classifying it as an SMG makes it use the concealibility modifier for that  and SMG specialization rather then AR specialization.,

Allow me to preface this by stating that the reason I bring this up is Weldûn's assertion that Gun Haven is written in such a way that requires the reader to be a gun enthusiast. I am stating that this is not the case, as it is demonstrable that Gun Haven (and SR in general) was not written by/for people with a lot of real-world firearms knowledge.

With that out of the way...

The defining characteristic of a submachinegun is that it uses pistol ammunition. Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

The "game mechanic" thing had occurred to me, except that it still doesn't make any sense. The M4 uses rifle ammo, and therefore the combat stats are that of a rifle. Why classify it as an SMG then correct all of the combat stats? Why not just classify it as an AR and adjust the Concealment? It has a folding stock...which gives it the bonus to concealment. If they gave it the Reduced Barrel mod, it would round it out nicely (and realistically).

Having it use the SMG specialization rather than the AR specialization based on its size just reinforces the lack of research/knowledge that I'm talking about - an M4 is the carbine form of the M-16A2. Mechanically, it's the same weapon, just shorter. Someone who has focused their training on ARs (such as any relatives of the AR-15) are going to be much more familiar with the operation of an M-4 (which is functionally identical) than, say, someone who has primarily focused on SMGs (such as the MP5's cousins).


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Critias]

It's not unique to Gun Haven, mind you, and the M16 family of weapons.  The AKs have gotten similar treatment, and for more than on edition, now -- shortening the barrel makes one an assault rifle and one a submachinegun, and back in, say, SR3, that meant two whole separate skills (not just a different specialization)! 

[CanRay]

Well, to be fair, the AKS-74U (The AK-97 Carbine, essentially) is just a large SMG in size, despite the light assault rifle cartridge (5.45mm Soviet.).  The H&K HK53 is marketed as an SMG in the company catalog, despite being in 5.56mm NATO as well.

For most people, SMG requires a pistol cartridge, but not everyone agrees on that one.  Just like a lot of firearms terminology, unfortunately.

[Cass100199]

Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

[CanRay]

One thing I saw that I liked in the SSC was that every firearm had it's own concealability rating.  That way a short-barreled Browning Ultra-Power was easier to hide away than the monsterous Ares Predator or Ruger Super-Warhawk.

[Critias]

Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.

[Cass100199]

Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.

Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.

[JoeNapalm]

Well, to be fair, the AKS-74U (The AK-97 Carbine, essentially) is just a large SMG in size, despite the light assault rifle cartridge (5.45mm Soviet.).  The H&K HK53 is marketed as an SMG in the company catalog, despite being in 5.56mm NATO as well.

For most people, SMG requires a pistol cartridge, but not everyone agrees on that one.  Just like a lot of firearms terminology, unfortunately.

The HK53 Carbine (note the full name) was a 5.56 carbine...specifically an SBR. It was a variant of the HK33, with some influence from the MP5, designed to fill the role of an SMG while having the armor penetration of a rifle. As such, it may well have been marketed along with SMGs, but it was, indeed, a carbine.

Firearms terminology is very much NOT vague and spotty - it is much more specific than most lingo, because people tend to be specific when their lives depend on it. (As a side note, that is probably the reason that the military and law enforcement folks tend to rant about the abuse of these terms. It makes them...itchy...when people around them don't know their gear.)

The problem is that people spend all of their lives being saturated by Hollywood with misleading information about firearms, and they start to believe it. Most people spend more of their lives watching inaccurate stuff about weapons than they do on their entire education. Point out particular bit of bullcrap, and it's like blasphemy.

Blowback is a myth, people. Glocks don't have hammers, no matter how cool it is to cock it back when you enter the room. When you rack the last shell out of your shotgun for dramatic effect, you're left with an empty shotgun. You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate


EDIT:
Clarification - By "blowback" I mean the whole hurl-someone-across-the-room-with-a-.45 effect, al la Last Man Standing, not the mechanism by which self-loading firearms operate.

[Critias]

Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.

Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.

No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to.  You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it.  Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?

[Critias]

You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.

While I appreciate the overall sentiment and agree with most of your post, I've gotta take issue with these last two, because the exceptions to them are vaguely amusing. 

Sometimes folks have had their weapons shot out of their hands (because generally when two guys are standing there aiming guns at each other, often it's the gun/hands/arms that are in the way!), albeit not necessarily on purpose.  So you CAN shoot the weapon out of the other fella's hands, but normally it happens just because his weapon is between your gun and his brain or heart or lungs or something. 

And sometimes, in some situations, people have shot to wound.  Civilians during a self defense scenario?  Absolutely not.  Cops?  Again, not likely.  But for a while the Israelis had guys with tricked out Ruger 10/22s, for instance, whose job was "riot suppression" by plinking at the legs of troublemakers to take the fight out of 'em.  It turned out to be too effective (in that the rioters ended up dying too often), as I understand it...but, hey, it's not quite a "never, ever," if someone as hardcore as the Israeli military's doing it. 

[CanRay]

Which just proves what should be an old saying:  "Don't f*** with the IDF."

[Cass100199]

 

Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.

Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.

It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.

Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.

No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to.  You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it.  Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?

  Concerned scold is concerned.