NEWS

Guns, guns, and more guns in Gun Heaven--out now!

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Critias

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« Reply #30 on: <06-13-11/1704:27> »
None of which changes the fact that caseless ammo has been the in-universe norm for the better part of two decades.  If the realism (or lack thereof) matters to you so much, instead of shooting it down, figure it out.  If you had SR-era technology, how would you make it work?  Because whatever your answer, someone obviously has.

CanRay

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« Reply #31 on: <06-13-11/1723:31> »
IIRC, it's been stated that a form of Lacquered Plastic Explosives is used as propellant for caseless ammo in Shadowrun...
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Nath

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« Reply #32 on: <06-13-11/1728:38> »
Or we're just going with the assumption that those problems have been worked-out, as caseless ammo has been the standard in the sixth world for 20+ years already.
Not 20 years. According to Fields of Fire (second edition), which is set in 2054, post-2050 weapons were available in caseless version with +50% increase on the price and +1 on Availability, implying cased was still the standard at that point. Only later did the Third Edition rulebook, set in 2060, say caseless ammo were now more common.

Faelan

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« Reply #33 on: <06-13-11/1733:39> »
None of which changes the fact that caseless ammo has been the in-universe norm for the better part of two decades.  If the realism (or lack thereof) matters to you so much, instead of shooting it down, figure it out.  If you had SR-era technology, how would you make it work?  Because whatever your answer, someone obviously has.

Why is it that the second you suggest something in game may not be entirely sensible, people come out of the wood work to shoot you down?  Seriously all I said is that in the case of a projectile stuck in a barrel a caseless round was the less reliable choice.  There is no technological answer unless we have disassembler nanobots remove it, or an electronic sensor to tell you it is stuck in the barrel, both options rely on electronic solutions, and are therefore liable to being compromised in the right environment.  My point is that in spite of lower weight, in spite of being more reliable for a beginner, a top end professional is going to actually prefer cased ammunition because of its more robust nature.  It can be abused, it is only prone to failures you can prevent or see, you don't have to trust your tech.

I was in no way suggesting the book was garbage or that caseless is not the predominantly used ammo in the game universe, my point was that old reliable has a reason to still be around.

CanRay

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« Reply #34 on: <06-13-11/1735:50> »
Hey, there used to be caseless revolvers.

They were called "Cap And Ball".  :P  OK, sure, the percussion cap dropped out and away...  Hopefully...
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Mäx

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« Reply #35 on: <06-13-11/1808:16> »
Or we're just going with the assumption that those problems have been worked-out, as caseless ammo has been the standard in the sixth world for 20+ years already.
Not 20 years. According to Fields of Fire (second edition), which is set in 2054, post-2050 weapons were available in caseless version with +50% increase on the price and +1 on Availability, implying cased was still the standard at that point. Only later did the Third Edition rulebook, set in 2060, say caseless ammo were now more common.
From the first edition corebook
Quote
Firearms
Firearms are primarily slug-throwers. The principles have not changed much over the years.
Many weapons offer two versions,for standard loads or for caseless ammunition,
though the latter is far more common in the 2050.
The same text with few alterations can be found in all corebooks, they just update the year to 2060 in third and 2070 in fourth.
« Last Edit: <06-13-11/1810:42> by Mäx »
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CanRay

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« Reply #36 on: <06-13-11/2345:36> »
And thus we go back to my complaints about lack of calibers (Which would also include their definition of being Cased or Caseless.).

For my own games, I've just ruled that Caseless is the standard for every firearm except for grenade launchers (Which use a similar system to the Russian GP-25 or GP-30 system), and revolvers (Which I just can't wrap my head around the cylinders being able to hold onto the caseless round.
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Bull

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« Reply #37 on: <06-13-11/2358:11> »
Best I can get you from Datahaven Bull's stats:

Commlink: Custom Built, all programs and attributes rating 6 or better, carried inside an armored Alpha Allegiance Cyberdeck casing.

Bull got updated a little bit in Missions.  He'll be getting updated/upgraded again (and statted out a little more fully) in the near future. :)

His stats as they appear in SRM 04-00: Back In Business

MacCallister

MacCallister is a former shadowrunner, an older ork and a “decker not a hacker, fraggit” in his own words. He ran the shadows for over a decade before retiring, and recently returned to Seattle to start a new career as a fixer, still carries his beat up ancient cyberdeck (With a modern bleeding edge commlink mounted inside the case), and he peppers his speech with out of date slang like “drek,” “frag,” and “hoop.” He’s confident and good natured.

He started operating as a fixer in the early part of 2072, and got involved with the copycat Mayan Cutter that showed up during the summer of ’72 when his daughter, Rebecca MacCallister, was one of the copycat’s victims. He has a ton of contacts in the shadow community and uses them to great eff ect. He’s been acting as the front man for the Metahuman rights groups for a couple months now, working toward legitimatizing the Ork Underground.

B A R S C I L W Edg Ess Init IP Arm CM
8 4 5 (8) 6 5 4 6 (9) 4 6 3.5 12 4 8/6 12

Active Skills: Cracking Group 6, Electronics Group 4, Etiquette 4, First Aid 3, Negotiation 5, Perception 4, Pistols (Revolvers) 5 (7),
Knowledge Skills: 20th Century Sci-Fi 4, Computer Hardware 5, Computer Soft ware 5, Corporate Security 3, Insect Spirits 6, Matrix Security 4, Seattle Area 3, Police Procedures 3, Seattle Street Gangs 2, Seattle Politics 2, Shadowrunner Lore 6
Augmentations: Datajack x2, Cerebral Booster 3, Encephelon 2, Math SPU, Mnemonic Enhancer 3, Synaptic Booster 3, Simsense Booster, Smartlink (all Betaware)
Commlink: Custom Built, all programs and attributes rating 6 or better. Firewall 8, numerous pieces of black IC. Also includes empathy soft ware at rating 6, though he rarely uses it against runners.
Gear: armor jacket, 2 Ruger Super Warhawks w/ 4 speed loaders and APDS ammo, AR contacts (w/ thermo, image link, vision mag, vision enhancement 3)
Weapons: Ruger Super Warhawk [Heavy Pistol, 6P, -6, 0 RC, 6(c), APDS ammo, custom grip, biometric sensor]

CanRay

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« Reply #38 on: <06-14-11/0001:21> »
And here I was expecting to have to wait until the book full of characters came out for an updated Bull!   ;D

Capping his Daughter, worst mistake that wanna-be ever made.  Is that why he's on the JackPoint as well?
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Bull

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« Reply #39 on: <06-14-11/0102:34> »
In part.  It got him riled up enough to get back in the biz full time.  Which meant it was time to finally accept FJ's offer to join Jackpoint.

Bull

savaze

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« Reply #40 on: <06-14-11/0215:34> »
And thus we go back to my complaints about lack of calibers (Which would also include their definition of being Cased or Caseless.).

For my own games, I've just ruled that Caseless is the standard for every firearm except for grenade launchers (Which use a similar system to the Russian GP-25 or GP-30 system), and revolvers (Which I just can't wrap my head around the cylinders being able to hold onto the caseless round.
I would guess that caseless would have to be shaped something between a cylinder and a cone, forgive my geometry but...uh, to keep chambered rounds from sliding out of place or the chamber is slightly larger than the barrel to accommodate the bullet encased in propellant (with cylinders having a smaller rim on the business end).

EDIT: Changed a significant typo...
« Last Edit: <07-03-11/0611:21> by savaze »

hobgoblin

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« Reply #41 on: <06-14-11/0217:15> »
Firewall 8? Must be a pain to maintain.
Want to see my flash new jacket?

CanRay

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« Reply #42 on: <06-14-11/0227:30> »
I would guess that caseless would have to be shaped something between a cylinder and a cone, forgive my geometry but...uh, to keep chambered rounds from sliding out of place or the chamber is slightly larger than the bullet to accommodate the bullet encased in propellant (with cylinders having a smaller rim on the business end).
Revolver ammunition uses what's called "Rimmed" cases, where the bottom of the brass comes out a bit in at the, well, rim.  This is what holds the ammo in place.  Rimless ammo is used by Automatic weapons (Semi- and full-automatic.).

There are a few rare revolvers that use rimless ammo, but they require half-moon and full-moon clips (The correct usage of the term for once, YAY!), which hold three or six rounds respectively.

Even rarer is revolvers that can camber and use any 9mm/.38 caliber ammunition.  ...  ...  OK, it's one revolver, no longer produced, called the Medusa Model 47 Revolver.  They successfully tested and claimed that it'd work with 25 different types of ammunition, with 117 possible types that could be used (Some of which are museum pieces.  Yes, ammo so rare it's in a museum!).

Caseless ammunition, being just a square block, doesn't have a rim of any kind, so wouldn't be held by a cylinder.  Unless it's Cap and Ball, then the percussion cap fits on the nipple.
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Bull

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« Reply #43 on: <06-14-11/0327:31> »
Firewall 8? Must be a pain to maintain.

Eh.  He's an NPC.  WHat else does he have to do during downtime? ;)

Bull

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« Reply #44 on: <06-14-11/0328:33> »
You know CanRay, you keep using words like "rimmed" and "nipple" and you may get warning from the mods ;)

Bull