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Street Legends

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Grinder

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« Reply #135 on: <07-18-11/1239:13> »
Probably done by Horizon.

JM_Hardy

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« Reply #136 on: <07-18-11/1246:28> »
and how do these Individuals get people talking when They're ....just average ?
 

with an average Dance
Medicineman

Possibly with intangible things that are discussed in the write-up. Also, while Rigger X is not the most powerful character in the book, he has a nice Reaction and Logic, and he has a lot of gear. He may not be exceptional when compared to other groups of experienced riggers, but when compared to the general run of humanity, he's more than average.

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Neurosis

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« Reply #137 on: <07-18-11/1304:40> »
Hello, for full disclosure I wrote the Rigger X stat block. As freelancers go, I'm pretty green. So I've been sitting here for quite some time typing and then promptly deleting a variety of different wall of text posts while trying to decide how to respond. Let's start small...

I am mostly interested in engaging this issue on a crunch/rules level. I don't intend to make defenses like 'the character wasn't supposed to be optimized' or 'do better yourself'. I've been reading the rules very carefully before making any responses, because I believe that while I may have made some rules errors, my critics are misinterpreting the rules in some ways as well. 

PS: What's also somewhat weird about Mr. X, he's got all sorts of upgrades which apply when jumped in, yet his vehicle skills are specialized on remote control (i.e. using a Command program). While not against the rules AFAIK, I wouldn't allow a character which is specialized on something he doesn't seem to use very often.

This strikes me as a significantly narrow interpretation of what the "Remote Operation" specialization means. You are interpreting it to mean 'when using the Remote Control option for drone rigging as opposed to the Jumped-In or Issuing Commands option'. I interpret it to mean 'whenever not physically present'. As usual, SR4A provides no help--the limits and boundaries of specializations remain unexplained--so empirically speaking, either interpretation is valid. I am not aware of any page reference where it specifies what 'Remote Operation' does or does not mean.

Note that I specifically mean the keyword 'Remote Operation'--not 'Remote Control'--which are two different phrases, which I take to be significant. 'Remote Control' is the proper name of one of the three methods of controlling drones. 'Remote Operation' seems to me to be a catch-all term that could be used whenever a rigger was not physically present in a vehicle they were piloting.

Now, I realize that according to this interpretation that I used, 'Remote Operation' is a very powerful specialization. But then again, that wouldn't be entirely inconsistent with SR4A...skill specializations that can be overpowered based on GM interpretation. An excellent example is the 'Automatics' specialization of Pistols, which covers something like 80% of Pistols (including all the best ones) which is clearly better than the more limited 'Revolvers' or 'Hold-Outs' specialization. Another good example is the 'Martial Arts' specialization of Unarmed Combat, which depending on how lenient your GM is, you could rule to apply ALL THE TIME.

So to summarize and repeat my point...we are using two different definitions of what the undefined 'Remote Operation' specialization means. You are assuming that 'Remote Operation' = 'Remote Control', and I am not.
« Last Edit: <07-18-11/1306:42> by Neurosis »
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #138 on: <07-18-11/1308:05> »
and how do these Individuals get people talking when They're ....just average ?
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Chinese_whispers
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Sengir

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« Reply #139 on: <07-18-11/1434:02> »
My impression is that Street Legends contain people that are talked about in the shadows because of some piece of rep or similar, not because of in-game numbers being uber.
Reputation is also based on earned Karma. Friends with significant influence are represented by contacts with a high Connection rating. Ooops.

Furthermore, with these stats it's tough to defend the presence of Rigger X on Jackpoint. The principle of Jackpoint is an invitation-only network for people who can contribute significant info. What can he contribute, besides some tidbits on MCT's security an average face could easily talk out of a corpsec at a bar?

John Schmidt

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« Reply #140 on: <07-18-11/1436:22> »
From my perspective as a GM, it goes something like this...

Street Legends are more than the accumulation of numbers and resources on a sheet. These are the mover's and shakers because they think outside of the box. Their tactical awareness is more than how many people make up the opposition. When somebody throws a CS grenade in a hallway they activate the fire sprinklers to reduce the effectiveness of the gas. They know what chemicals to look for in a cleaning closet to make an distraction and so forth.

At the other end of the spectrum are runners who think that everything can be solved with bullets and plastic explosives. They have the same level of finesse as a F5 tornado. These guys are legendary for the collateral damage and body counts that they rack up.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Makki

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« Reply #141 on: <07-18-11/1443:39> »
Street Legends are more than the accumulation of numbers and resources on a sheet. These are the mover's and shakers because they think outside of the box.
and nobody disagrees with that, but despite being "more than just numbers", there should be numbers to back up their description. A Street Legend should have good numbers + awesomeness, while a normal runner just has numbers.

FastJack

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« Reply #142 on: <07-18-11/1454:03> »
Oh look! Rules!

Quote from: SR4A, p. 265
Street Cred
     Street Cred represents a character’s lifetime accomplishments in the shadows. The longer she’s been around, the more he’s done and seen, the more respect she’ll get from her peers.
     Street Cred is based on a character’s total earned Karma (see Karma, p. 269), divided by 10 and rounded normally. A character who has earned 35 Karma in the course of a game will have a Street Cred of 4 (35 ÷ 10 = 3.5, rounded up to 4).
     At the gamemaster’s discretion, additional points may be added to a character’s Street Cred for any epic adventures, stunning victories, unbelievable escapes, or similar eyebrow-raising accomplishments.

Sengir

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« Reply #143 on: <07-18-11/1503:49> »
additional [əˈdɪʃənəl]
adj
 added or supplementary

Not "all of it".

FastJack

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« Reply #144 on: <07-18-11/1510:08> »
additional [əˈdɪʃənəl]
adj
 added or supplementary

Not "all of it".
Well, since adding 1 point to Street Cred is the equivalent of 10 Karma (without them getting Karma), I'd say that's a pretty big deal. If you're judging "Legendary" as 900+ Karma, and Rigger X has enough "epic" adventures that a DM had awarded him 5 Street Cred without the Karma, then we're looking at a Legendary character with only 400+ karma.

Tycho

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« Reply #145 on: <07-18-11/1516:09> »
additional [əˈdɪʃənəl]
adj
 added or supplementary

Not "all of it".
Well, since adding 1 point to Street Cred is the equivalent of 10 Karma (without them getting Karma), I'd say that's a pretty big deal. If you're judging "Legendary" as 900+ Karma, and Rigger X has enough "epic" adventures that a DM had awarded him 5 Street Cred without the Karma, then we're looking at a Legendary character with only 400+ karma.
as I already pointed out: Rigger X has about 120Karma...


DWC

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« Reply #146 on: <07-18-11/1522:01> »
Oh look! Rules!

Quote from: SR4A, p. 265
Street Cred
     Street Cred represents a character’s lifetime accomplishments in the shadows. The longer she’s been around, the more he’s done and seen, the more respect she’ll get from her peers.
     Street Cred is based on a character’s total earned Karma (see Karma, p. 269), divided by 10 and rounded normally. A character who has earned 35 Karma in the course of a game will have a Street Cred of 4 (35 ÷ 10 = 3.5, rounded up to 4).
     At the gamemaster’s discretion, additional points may be added to a character’s Street Cred for any epic adventures, stunning victories, unbelievable escapes, or similar eyebrow-raising accomplishments.

What it boils down to is this.  He's awesome because the author said he's awesome.  He's certainly not competent enough for his Legendary Status to be legit, so he must exist to be the reminder that not every legend is based on any substance.

He doesn't have the skills to be the Jack of All Trades who always has a way out of a sticky situation.  He doesn't have the Willpower to be the guy with the herculean tenacity who's unflappable under pressure.  He's not even a good enough liar to have fabricated his own rep.

FastJack

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« Reply #147 on: <07-18-11/1533:53> »
Well there was that time that he had snuck into the local bureau office of Saeder-Krupp on an innocent little snatch and grab and found himself face to face with Lofwyr. How he managed to distract the Dragon with just a couple of microdrones, no one knows and he's not telling.

Sengir

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« Reply #148 on: <07-18-11/1534:20> »
Well, since adding 1 point to Street Cred is the equivalent of 10 Karma (without them getting Karma), I'd say that's a pretty big deal.
No contest here. But to get that point the character has to pull of an epic stunt, which should result in an according Karma reward, too.

"Legendary" is now officially defined as 500 Karma, meaning at least 50 Street Cred. Rigger X has ~150 Karma (->15 Cred), so he would have needed to earn 35 Cred "on the side". Thirty-Five "eyebrow-raising accomplishments" and the character has only earned <150 Karma? I'd read my GM the riot act ;)

Critias

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« Reply #149 on: <07-18-11/1543:58> »
Legendary for PCs is described as 500 karma.  Legendary for NPCs isn't, it's just described as "being in this book," basically.  The movers and shakers in Shadowrun, the folks with the high rep?  Some of them are Lofwyr, or Lugh Surehand, or Martin DeVries.  Some of them are powerhouses, and their stats reflect that. 

Some of them, on the other hand, are just folks who were in the right place at the right time, and have built a rep for themselves by being recognizable names -- the NPCs who chatter with one another about new gear, spread rumors about upcoming jobs, and upload data files to Jackpoint for the rest of them to pick at like vultures.  If you're a recognizable, memorable, Shadowrun NPC, you had a shot at being in Street Legends.  Maybe you were in a couple novels (Kellan Colt), maybe you're a regular Jackpointer, maybe you're a long-time lurker like Bull who's been used as an NPC a few times before...there's no "500 karma" requirement to be an NPC in Street Legends and get the (optional) rule that lets the campaign kick in the cinematic rules.  Their version of the rule is there to reflect that a household name is on the scene, and everyone in the game suddenly kicks it up a notch.

As a wholly separate entity from that rule, there is a "Legendary" Quality that PCs can buy.  This Quality comes with karma requirements (and GM's consent, again), and allows that single PC and only that single PC to score a hit on a 4+ instead of a 5+.

People keep crossing the wires of those two rules, and I really rather wish they'd stop.