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Neurosis

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« Reply #165 on: (17:52:19/07-18-11) »
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1.) A character can become a Legend if he has achieved at least 500 Karma. I don't care about the bonuses this gives, just about the fact that a character
is officially a "legend" at this point

If you don't care about the crunchy effects of the 'Legendary' status, why do you care at all about the crunchy requirements? This is very confusing to me.

Let's pretend these are two different qualities. Legend A, and Legend B. Both completely optional.

Legend A applies only to the NPCs in this book. Those NPCs cause EVERYONE AROUND THEM to be more awesome. This doesn't cost any Karma or have any
prerequisite besides inclusion in the book. Which is good, because it DOES NOT ACTUALLY HELP YOU AT ALL.

Legend B has a prerequisite of having 500 Karma, and a cost of spending 100 Karma. Which is good, because it actually is a huge boon to YOU AND YOU ALONE
once attained.
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Tycho

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« Reply #166 on: (18:21:58/07-18-11) »
Excuse me, but what the fuck is the point of printing the bloody stats then? You print the stats, and then tell us to ignore them once the inevitable happens?

I am with Sengir on this one and all the lame excuses are getting on my nerves.

Rigger X is supposed to be a high-end drone rigger. In the shadowtalker list he is listed as a Space Scavenger but since he has no Pilot Aerospace skill I assume this was ignored.
The NSCs is legendary because they're better because they have an awful lot of dice to roll for most of the things they do.

So it turns out that the stats of Rigger X are not close to what they are supposed to represent and all I get are excuses about

- optimized and legendary are two different things (they sure are, I don't need optimized chars, but they sure should look the part...)
- Street Legends contain people that are talked about in the shadows because of some piece of rep (which they got by looking pretty?)
- Street Legends are more than the accumulation of numbers and resources on a sheet (sure, but they should have the number and res to back up their legend status)
- Legendary for NPCs, it's just described as "being in this book" ( :o

This is my personal favorite!  :P
... but when compared to the general run of humanity, he's more than average.

compared with the rest of humanity every rigger's rigging skills are above average! This is just a dumb statement. Everyone is more than average in his field compared to all of humanity...  :o

You seem to have made up your mind about this book (and everyone who worked on it, regardless of what they worked on) based on the preview, and what's more upon a single page of the preview (Rigger X's stats in particular).

Last time I checked a preview was exactly for that, representing the whole book to a potential costumer  ::)

@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.

Errata Version:
This is better, I still would add Simsense booster or accelerator and More then Metahuman and some stuff like TacNet for the drones.

Your pools are right, you could get 2 more dice out of the remote control if you are in hot sim VR. Before your errata most of these pools would be 4-6 dice short and then you are more or less in "I am the Hacker, but I have some drones"-territory.  ;)

cya
Tycho

Sengir

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« Reply #167 on: (18:26:20/07-18-11) »
@Sengir:

But at least you have to agree it's open to interpretation! 'Remote Operation', I mean. Anyway, that is a perfect discussion for Dumpshock some rainy day. : )
Of course it is, GM fiat is always subjective ;)

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Anyway, the thing is...Rigger X isn't meant to be a GD plot device in my mind. He's just a (highly competent runner). He shouldn't be an unkillable force of nature.  That's Lofwyr you're thinking of.  Assigning stats to Lofwyr is...no comment. At worse, though, I mean it's a fun exercise in number crunching.
See, that's the problem I have with this kind of book: You don't want the legend to be an almighty god with his flaming sword, because that would just make him a more elaborate way of saying "rocks fall, you die". But if you give the legend sensible stats, the players will consider him just another runner (if allied), or just another goon leader (if opponent).


Ignoring game stats, IMO the most important thing would simply be something "special". Uncommon skills (I'm thinking of that mage from Prime Runners who bargains with spirits), prized knowledge, mighty people at his beck and call...
For example, a view at the Shadowtalker list yields for Mr. X: "Rigger, Space Scavenger Asian. Ex-MCT company rigger. Skilled in electronic spycraft. Permits no opposition to survive." Space and spycraft, eh? How about the ability to get some satellite surveillance? A long history of providing inside scoops on new drone developments and the tendency to field-test his newly "acquired" prototypes on his poor opponents? Contacts to spy agencies?

That said, the updated crunch is certainly better, especially since he finally got upgrades on his drones ;)

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But I do take umbrage when people say I don't know anything about the Shadowrun rules.
That was NOT me.


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1.) A character can become a Legend if he has achieved at least 500 Karma. I don't care about the bonuses this gives, just about the fact that a character
is officially a "legend" at this point

If you don't care about the crunchy effects of the 'Legendary' status, why do you care at all about the crunchy requirements? This is very confusing to me.
Because my interest what not what a legend DOES. I am merely extrapolating what MAKES a legend, or if you will how legendary a legend is.
And the answer is quite clear, a legend has a street cred of at least 50 because he has at least 500 Karma.
« Last Edit: (18:29:48/07-18-11) by Sengir »

Frankie the Fomori

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« Reply #168 on: (18:43:30/07-18-11) »
Sengir: sorry I do not know what you’re talking about? Are those movies? Off topic though, so please PM about what they are about and if I should watch them? I see about a movie a week though with my amazing wife, so if it is good we will add it to our list and I may watch it in about a years’ time. We still have not been able to catch up and watch all the Shrek movies (saw one) yet :(

For street legends is there anything you like about the preview so far?

I think it is fitting that the invited Lothan to the "invited guest" list. Seeing the Cyber arm on Cayman makes my visual on Cyber arms that much better. And his Art rocks

Was kind of sad that they did not (as far as I can tell) add anyone from the spells and chrome novel though (Black mamba, Dirk, or Deke would have been my top three).

Have a great day though

O and thanks for the Errata you put together....it is something our group is using (especially the suites)

Stat lines for all types of NPC's are awesome for me, I am a junky for this sort of thing ever sense I got hall of hero’s back in mid-1990's (it was out before that but I had just really picked up gaming in high school"). For my own life this is probably the best type of product for me...and have set aside money for it sense I learned of its release.  I know SR is waiting for the book to come out near the end of the month...but I still check (sometimes hourly) when it is up on their site.  But I am a number's crunching person so what's not to love about these products.

Critias

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« Reply #169 on: (18:58:43/07-18-11) »
@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.
As the guy that wrote the stats, he's the only one that should step up and call them a mistake.  I'll say I didn't like aspects of War!, for instance, but since I wasn't involved in it, it's not my place to call it a pile of crap or something like some fans seem to want us to. 

As writers, it's only our place to apologize for the things we are directly responsible for, period.  When discussing the work of our peers, instead of our own, it's a matter of professionalism to not call their work a "mistake."  You can respect him for "admitting" that, or whatever you want to do, but kindly don't belittle the rest of us for not bad-mouthing the material written by a coworker.

CanRay

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« Reply #170 on: (19:01:26/07-18-11) »
Oh $Deity, people, the book isn't even out yet and we're on page 12 and a stern warning into the thread.

I'd just like to point that out...
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Neurosis

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« Reply #171 on: (19:06:32/07-18-11) »
Laziness Warning: This post contains multiple unsourced quotes. Scrolling up for half a second, you'll be able to tell who said what, tho.

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compared with the rest of humanity every rigger's rigging skills are above average! This is just a dumb statement. Everyone is more than average in his
field compared to all of humanity...  :o

Before errata, Rigger X on his bike with no matrix help has a dice pool of ~14, 15 if he happens to be on beta meth which is really not bad. His infiltration, social, and combat skills likewise were pretty respectable, and even if each individual drone was a bit shitty, he did have the ability to field quite a surveillance network, even if he'd have to rely on other methods than TacNet to convey the SIGINT received this way to his team.

I definitely agree that I messed up some of the stats specifically the drone upgrades--I was making the fallacious assumption that dice pools for jumped-in drones are based on the COMMLINK'S response--but even pre-"errata" (how I wish the errata could actually go in the book as it gets printed) Rigger X was a pretty  exceptional guy. Even the original version I think came out a bit better than any of the sample characters, which is kind of more a fair comparison for him than, say, the 50+ dice Pornomancer.  : )

Even so, Rigger X actually in the book version is maneuvering his drones in remote control on a dice pool of 13, which is, in the games I've played in competitive, particularly if you consider that he has the breadth to pilot practically every type of vehicle in existence. At the tables I play at, a dice pool of 12 is considered 'very good' and anything much higher than that (say 18+) is the realm of twinkage.  But I respect that everyone's table is different and some people are more into the MOAR DICE side of things, which is fine, I can dig it.

(5 (Command) + 2 (Hot Sim) + 4 (Pilot Aircraft) + 2 (Remote Operation Specialization) is how I arrived at the above number of 13, btw. 13 might not be rocking any one's socks off, but it's not exactly shitty either! I do admit I made mistakes, as I addressed in the errata. Errata'd version is way better, once again I wish it'd be in the final book. But if wishes were Nuyen....

(By the way, although I join Sengir and Tycho in caring a LOT about the numbers side, I hope people do enjoy the textual portion of the Rigger X chapter when it comes out. )

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@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.

Thank you. It's fair that I'm taking the heat, although keep in mind I can't be held responsible for 'all that is wrong with shadowrun'.

The other stats in the book are much much better than Rigger X. Particularly the ones that I wrote, I can speak to. Lugh Surehand (who I also statted) is much better at 'ruining your shit forever with magic' than pre-'errata' Rigger X is at rigging drones, relative to their respective point totals. More imporantly, though, please don't judge everyone else's work on my isolated screw up. ('But that's what previews are for...' Yeah, I know, but I do think this preview is probably decidedly more imperfect than the book itself. No offense at all meant to Crimson. The purpose of previews I really don't understand anyway. I wish we did not release the public preview at a point in the development cycle when making changes to the content was impossible, but it probably can't be avoided, doing things that way.)

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Errata Version:
This is better, I still would add Simsense booster or accelerator and More then Metahuman and some stuff like TacNet for the drones.

Your pools are right, you could get 2 more dice out of the remote control if you are in hot sim VR. Before your errata most of these pools would be 4-6 dice short and then you are more or less in "I am the Hacker, but I have some drones"-territory.

I don't think every Rigger needs to be built the same way. I don't think SR4A suffers from 'you must be this feat to ride this class' as much as D&D 3.5E.  So I kind of stand by my decision not to add for instance simsense booster or more than metahuman. There is more than one way to build a cat/skin a rigger. Erm reverse that.

I admit that failure to load up most drones with Sensor 6 and Response 6 was a blunder, but don't be so insistent that every rigger must have More Than Metahuman or whatever. Building every character in the same mechanically optimal way gets really boring really fast. It's the characters who use revolvers or melee combat who are often as not more memorable than the characters who go for the most mechanically optimized options, and often, at least in SR, they don't have to be that much mechanically worse to be more interesting in terms of flavor.

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See, that's the problem I have with this kind of book: You don't want the legend to be an almighty god with his flaming sword, because that would just make him a more elaborate way of saying "rocks fall, you die". But if you give the legend sensible stats, the players will consider him just another runner (if allied), or just another goon leader (if opponent).

I think the characters in Street Legends can sort of run the gamut here. Rigger X really is just another runner. A very good runner, but he's not meant to be unkillable. In fact, one of the hooks in the text portion of the chapter is how many enemies he has who might want him dead or captured, to give a GM a quick way to have the PCs match wits with a jackpointer.

However, characters like Lofwyr and Hestaby really didn't need stats. But for the people who like that kind of thing, now they have them. For people who like that kind of thing, and who want to know how many rocks fall, and just how thoroughly everyone dies. : ) And there are people who want to know.

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Ignoring game stats, IMO the most important thing would simply be something "special". Uncommon skills (I'm thinking of that mage from Prime Runners who bargains with spirits), prized knowledge, mighty people at his beck and call...
For example, a view at the Shadowtalker list yields for Mr. X: "Rigger, Space Scavenger Asian. Ex-MCT company rigger. Skilled in electronic spycraft. Permits no opposition to survive." Space and spycraft, eh? How about the ability to get some satellite surveillance? A long history of providing inside scoops on new drone developments and the tendency to field-test his newly "acquired" prototypes on his poor opponents? Contacts to spy agencies?

That said, the updated crunch is certainly better, especially since he finally got upgrades on his drones

I'm glad the crunch is an improvement. (Not to tell tales out of school, but our internal wiki actually makes no mention of the 'Space Scavenger' part for X. The spycraft and 'permits no opposition to survive' however you'll get a healthy dose of in the text portion of the chapter.

If you can see your way to buying the book, of course. : )

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Stat lines for all types of NPC's are awesome for me, I am a junky for this sort of thing ever sense I got hall of hero’s back in mid-1990's (it was out before that but I had just really picked up gaming in high school"). For my own life this is probably the best type of product for me...and have set aside money for it sense I learned of its release.  I know SR is waiting for the book to come out near the end of the month...but I still check (sometimes hourly) when it is up on their site.  But I am a number's crunching person so what's not to love about these products.

Your support means the world to me, although I do hope that 'number crunching people' can love these products too.

Trying to please the Gaming Den(s) of the world will probably be the death of me, though.
~"Pirates and bankrobbers, not lawyers and CEOs
Stockbrokers ain't no heroes!"~

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Neurosis

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« Reply #172 on: (19:11:26/07-18-11) »
@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.
As the guy that wrote the stats, he's the only one that should step up and call them a mistake.  I'll say I didn't like aspects of War!, for instance, but since I wasn't involved in it, it's not my place to call it a pile of crap or something like some fans seem to want us to. 

As writers, it's only our place to apologize for the things we are directly responsible for, period.  When discussing the work of our peers, instead of our own, it's a matter of professionalism to not call their work a "mistake."  You can respect him for "admitting" that, or whatever you want to do, but kindly don't belittle the rest of us for not bad-mouthing the material written by a coworker.

Critias is thoroughly right, by the way.

Besides, I believe they were defending somewhat more integral part of the books that came under fire, like the legendary rule. I don't think anyone really waded into the 'Rigger X stats' issue but me. Which is fine, of everyone here, the discussion of Rigger X's stat block, specifically, is probably most important to me personally. (And as I said...thoroughly...in my last post, I don't think the original stats were really *that* bad. But they weren't perfect and I definitely want to improve whenever possible.)

Oh $Deity, people, the book isn't even out yet and we're on page 12 and a stern warning into the thread.

I'd just like to point that out...

I know, personally speaking, that I'm feeling the love. : )
« Last Edit: (19:13:59/07-18-11) by Neurosis »
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FastJack

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« Reply #173 on: (19:38:20/07-18-11) »
Right. Both sides have established their talking points, discussed why they believe A or B and neither side is closer to an understanding. I think this topic has been thoroughly beaten well beyond the proverbial dead horse.

I suggest that if this all means so much to y'all, take Frankie's advice and start posting your own street legends. Hell, post stats for your version of FastJack if you want, just remember two things:

1) Your legends won't be official (unless Mr. Hardy contacts you and says "Can we use that?")
2) Prepare to have people pick apart your work on a public board.

Heck, I'll even go a step further. If we have enough interest in posting Legends, I'll see about getting a sub-forum created so they are all in one spot.

But, in regards to this discussion, the thread's getting locked. If things still need to be discussed, take it to PM's.