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Carbines and SMG's

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Critias

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« Reply #30 on: (18:58:32/05-25-11) »
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if it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.
A carbine is a shortened assault rifle that fires assault rifle ammunition. SMG's fire pistol ammunition at a high rate of speed.
That's not always the case, however.  Some carbines fire pistol ammo.  Traditionally, it can be either -- when in doubt, if it's shorter or lighter than a "real" rifle, history has called it a carbine.  This applies to Winchester and Marlin lever-actions (with the classic "cowboy" image of having a belt full of .44-40s that he could load into his trusty wheelgun or carbine), into WWII with the De Lisle, and into modern day with stuff like the Marlin, Ruger, and Kel-Tec carbines that even take pistol magazines, not just pistol ammo.

Sometimes a carbine is a short-barreled AR, yes, but sometimes it's a long barreled, stock-mounted, "pistol."  Hell, technically an SMG firing on semi-auto fits the definition of a carbine...and even not-semi-auto ones (look up the official designation of the Sten gun some time).  In real life, designations get all tangled up, definitions are loose at best, and terms are sometimes misrepresented.

What actually matters in this discussion, though, isn't really real life.  It's the game, and the way the game is an abstraction of real life.  Just like ammo is silly, just like weapon ranges are silly, just like armor is silly, firearm designations can be silly.  Sometimes that means something we think should be lumped into Assault Rifles gets lumped into Submachineguns instead.  If you want to house rule it, there's certainly nothing stopping you, but the long and short of it is that your average game designer just doesn't have the time or inclination to really care about real-world guns, much less the time or inclination to try and make their future-fantasy RPG as realistic a combat simulation as possible.

Mäx

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« Reply #31 on: (19:35:10/05-25-11) »
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if it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.

You're wrong again, but at least consistent. I can make a shotgun the size of an SMG; smaller actually. Doesn't make it an SMG.
No put in SR4 it does change it's base damage to that of an Heavy Pistol.
And no i'm not wrong, if you really think so, then my whole point went miles above your head.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Cass100199

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« Reply #32 on: (19:47:53/05-25-11) »
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And no i'm not wrong, if you really think so, then my whole point went miles above your head.

No, you're wrong. I asked when I started the thread, why are carbines grouped in with SMG's when they are clearly two different things. I didn't ask for your personal opinion on the definition of an SMG's and some stupid blather about how they are the same. So it's not that your point was lofty or anything; it's that you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. So at this point, I will say as before, if you want to continue to say things that have no factual truth, you are welcome to PM me.
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Mäx

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« Reply #33 on: (19:54:01/05-25-11) »
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And no i'm not wrong, if you really think so, then my whole point went miles above your head.
No, you're wrong. I asked when I started the thread, why are carbines grouped in with SMG's when they are clearly two different things.
And i said in my first post, for game balance.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Critias

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« Reply #34 on: (20:36:12/05-25-11) »
No, you're wrong...I didn't ask for your personal opinion on the definition of an SMG's and some stupid blather about how they are the same. So it's not that your point was lofty or anything; it's that you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
Take it easy, chief.  Go burn through a box of ammo at the range or something to cool down, then come back and realize you're coming off as pretty hostile in these last couple posts.  It's just an internet forum where folks are having a disagreement about the firearm categorizations of a role-playing game;  nothing worth getting worked up and angry about.

savaze

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« Reply #35 on: (21:03:02/05-25-11) »
Umm shotgun  with shot does 9P damage not 3.
Shotgun with shot does do 9P and you'll also notice I said average damage...

There is a difference in size between SMG's and carbines. SMGs usually range in the 15-25" over-all length (OAL) range, with a 7-10" barrel, weighing in at 4-6 lbs; whereas carbines are usually in the 25-35" OAL range, with 10-15" barrels, weighing in at 6-7 (arguably higher, but that's a different debate). Carbines fit the gap between assault rifles and SMGs. You can move into the whole PDW ammo argument, but that came along after the fact (so yes you can have SMGs that have similar ranges as carbines with PDW ammo and carbines that fire pistol rounds). It's all down to what the weapons are used for and why.

CanRay

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« Reply #36 on: (21:44:03/05-25-11) »
Go burn through a box of ammo at the range or something to cool down...
Oh how I wish!
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #37 on: (01:47:57/05-26-11) »
I didn't ask for your personal opinion on the definition of an SMG's and some stupid blather about how they are the same.

He's not giving his personal opinion. He's telling you how the game system treats it.

He's not talking about "real life" at all. Note how he discusses "game balance" over and over.

And this is a Shadowrun forum. You're going to get personal opinions by the bucketload whether you want it or not, regardless of the subject.



-k

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #38 on: (02:03:33/05-26-11) »
Umm shotgun  with shot does 9P damage not 3.
Shotgun with shot does do 9P and you'll also notice I said average damage...

So, how is "average" damage only 3?  You don't roll for damage in Shadowrun, you roll for accuracy and then add the extras to the damage the weapon already does.  So the shotgun does a whopping 9 damage to the accident-prone shooter, in this case, and prays he doesn't blow his foot off.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

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« Reply #39 on: (02:04:57/05-26-11) »
And this is a Shadowrun forum. You're going to get personal opinions by the bucketload whether you want it or not, regardless of the subject.
-k
Especially about firearms, considering how Gun Nuts are.

Not singling you out, BTW, The Gun Nut.  I'm in that category as well.  :P
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savaze

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« Reply #40 on: (02:30:55/05-26-11) »
So, how is "average" damage only 3?  You don't roll for damage in Shadowrun, you roll for accuracy and then add the extras to the damage the weapon already does.  So the shotgun does a whopping 9 damage to the accident-prone shooter, in this case, and prays he doesn't blow his foot off.
As I'm beyond looking the idiot, I'm going to go watch to tv to complete the picture and hope my sleep frenzied mind passes out...

Cass100199

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« Reply #41 on: (09:37:41/05-26-11) »
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You're going to get personal opinions

Oh I get that. But if you're going to say something that has no basis in things like facts or logic, I don't feel bad for pointing it out. His mention of balance was a good one, albeit inacurrate on the game writer's part. Trying to insist that an SMG and carbine are the same thing is stupid.
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FastJack

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« Reply #42 on: (10:11:17/05-26-11) »
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You're going to get personal opinions

Oh I get that. But if you're going to say something that has no basis in things like facts or logic, I don't feel bad for pointing it out. His mention of balance was a good one, albeit inacurrate on the game writer's part. Trying to insist that an SMG and carbine are the same thing is stupid.
Cass, you might think it's stupid, but for many of us (yes, myself included), we couldn't tell the difference. As far as some of us are concerned, it's a gun, it's bigger than a pistol, smaller than a rifle and fires in bursts. Hence, why it's grouped in that category. This is a game first and foremost, it's not trying to be as realistic as possible. So some things get "dumbed down" for the mass public, which is going to drive the RL experts nuts (Remember 1st Edition "Megapulses" on cyberdecks? Yeah...) The key to remember is that things like this are done to make the game easier to run (in the case of Skills) and more marketable to the Many. If you want to create another group and put Carbines in there, you're free to do that as a player/GM (heck, in most games, you're probably okay with making it a specialization). But the thing you have to remember is Opinions are never "stupid".

(This is why I read Trigger Talk, but don't participate.)

Rockopolis

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« Reply #43 on: (10:32:26/05-26-11) »
Somehow I'm picturing a history blurb about Webster's having redefined 'Carbine' and 'SMG' in 2045. :P
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CanRay

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« Reply #44 on: (10:35:07/05-26-11) »
Somehow I hear the gnashing of teeth and wailing of every gun nut in the world in 2045 after reading that.   :P
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