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Carbines and SMG's

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Cass100199

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« Reply #15 on: (21:35:49/05-24-11) »
What I'd like to know are where are the rules for burning your eyebrows off for using a SMG-Sized Assault Rifle.   :P

Even a carbine with a 14 inch barrel is still pretty far from your face.
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CanRay

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« Reply #16 on: (22:38:08/05-24-11) »
Actually, having had my eyebrows burned off due to a flash fire (Not muzzle flare, but propane), it's not that bad.

The almost instant sunburn and waiting for sight to return, not so much fun.
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Charybdis

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« Reply #17 on: (01:57:28/05-25-11) »
Actually, having had my eyebrows burned off due to a flash fire (Not muzzle flare, but propane), it's not that bad.

The almost instant sunburn and waiting for sight to return, not so much fun.
Indeed, I can relate:
- Once from being too close to a sparking gas heater
- Once from being a bit too reckless with a butane-powered paint-can cannon.... fuse was always a bit tricky on that one.

Ahhhh, the fun of too much time unsupervised and a garage full of construction equipment... I loved Wisconsin....
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CanRay

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« Reply #18 on: (02:14:26/05-25-11) »
Don't even get me started on electricity and me.  :P

Anyhow, back to topic:  I guess this was an attempt at the writers (Someone prove me right/wrong/insane?) to try and just make the rules a bit easier to deal with.  Just like they made "Designated Marksman Rifles" just high-end hunting rifles, eh?  (At least, that's my read.  Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
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Charybdis

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« Reply #19 on: (03:02:20/05-25-11) »
Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
Sounds like the PERFECT place to be reading War!

So when blood is pooling under your chair from various wounds and people are looking at you with some concern  :o, you can hold up youir SR4 sourcebook, appropriately titled and nod sagely..

Yep, war's a bitch.  ???

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Mäx

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« Reply #20 on: (04:51:00/05-25-11) »
Just like they made "Designated Marksman Rifles" just high-end hunting rifles, eh?  (At least, that's my read.  Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
War doesn't have any kind of marksman rifles or hunting rifles in it.
And i dont think it's about ease of system, more about balance, as for example having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.
« Last Edit: (04:52:56/05-25-11) by Mäx »
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Cass100199

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« Reply #21 on: (09:44:40/05-25-11) »
Quote
[having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

A carbine isn't an SMG. Never has been. A carbine is a smaller AR.
« Last Edit: (09:47:13/05-25-11) by Cass100199 »
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #22 on: (10:30:11/05-25-11) »
Just like they made "Designated Marksman Rifles" just high-end hunting rifles, eh?  (At least, that's my read.  Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
War doesn't have any kind of marksman rifles or hunting rifles in it.
And i dont think it's about ease of system, more about balance, as for example having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

I think it's partly due to the granularity of the system.

SR4, at the core, is based on a scale that only goes from 1 to 6.

That means that a shift of 1 point is a 17% swing. That's pretty heft...a D20-based game deals in increments of 5%, a D100 system, 1%, etc.

[Okay, actually, with dice pools, it's way more complicated than that..rather than 1 through 6 it's like 28% extrapolated over the number of dice, or whatever...it's too effin' early for me to do Prob & Stat equations in my head, so I'm calling it 17%]

While I believe (as I stated) that the designers didn't know much (or care much) about firearms, the bigger reason is likely that the smallest modification that can be modeled by the system is that big honkin' 17% increment.

That's why you have weapon classes vs caliber, and why there's no difference between a katana and a broadsword, and why a 3 in a stat is average but a 4 is an Olympian.

It makes for a quicker, maybe easier system - but quick is a bit dirty when it comes to modeling a system.

I think it fits the atmosphere of the game - SR has always been about the spectacle and the story. A system like CP2020 is built around realistic simulation, and thus you can actually (with the proper sourcebooks) pick a specific real-world round and build an entire weapon around that specific ammunition caliber. But THAT game system is for modeling the exact hit-location of each round, the exact penetration, tracking shock and blood loss, etc, etc, etc...it's a about the nitty gritty, not the broad cinematic strokes.

It's simply the atmosphere of the game system itself. I think the one in place for SR4 makes sense and fits the setting nicely - but if you get wrapped around the axle on the difference between a JHP and a FMJ round, 9mm vs .40S&W, 7.62x39mm vs 7.62x51mm...it's simply too granular to be expressed in the system.

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« Last Edit: (10:32:12/05-25-11) by JoeNapalm »

savaze

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« Reply #23 on: (14:45:03/05-25-11) »
@JoeNapalm
Part of the problem is that 4e was a total system overhaul. It fixed some glaring problems in areas that needed major rewrites, but created new ones when it didn't need to, like making it into a d3 system (1 in 3 on a d6). The 3 prior editions were very lethal compared to this edition and IMO combat is very bogged down and slow now due to lethality being curbed (they were a target number system - the highest I ever saw someone go was 56 on a single d6 = 1/6718464 chance).

Now if someone negligently shoots themselves with a shotgun (with shot) they only have to soak 3 points of damage (average) with a 1/3 chance of soaking a single box (previously you were looking at taking 10 with between 1/9-1/12 chance of soaking a single box).

Mäx

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« Reply #24 on: (16:03:39/05-25-11) »
Quote
[having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

A carbine isn't an SMG. Never has been. A carbine is a smaller AR.
If it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.
Because both a SMG and an AR use the same skill there's no reason to pick an SMG if you can get a gun thats no bigger but does same damage as AR or even a BR.
Now if someone negligently shoots themselves with a shotgun (with shot) they only have to soak 3 points of damage
:o
Umm shotgun  with shot does 9P damage not 3.
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farothel

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« Reply #25 on: (16:04:06/05-25-11) »
It's not only caliber that's important to determine damage.  For instance the FN P-90 uses a 5.7x25mm cartridge, about half the size of the standard 9x19mm parabellum pistol shot, but it still manages to penetrate kevlar vests at ranges of 200m (that was a design requirement).  So a smaller, lighter bullet can still be better then a larger one (and with a smaller bullet, you can carry more for the same weight).
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #26 on: (16:14:16/05-25-11) »
@savaze

That's kinda bad news, to me, if that's the case.

I GM'd a SR1 campaign back in the day, and thought that it was very un-lethal in many situations. I eventually transitioned to CP2020, partly because I was after something a bit more cyberpunkishly deadly...someone pointing a pistol at your head was more than just show.

We're still in the tooling up stages of a new SR4 campaign (one of my old group called up out of the blue and offered to GM - something I rarely (never) have time for, these days). We're rather time-limited, so sessions are going to get painful if combat is even less lethal than before.

Haven't had a chance to do my test brawls...that will let me know how the weapons feel. I did notice that there ARE rules for upping the deadification - our GM is former military and at one point was a nationally ranked 1000-yard marksman, so I'm guessing if firefights turn into a bunch of nerf brawls, the optional rules will be put into effect in short order.

Come to think of it, I better write up a couple reserve characters - my current main has a bit of an attitude problem, and might not last long.  ;)

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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #27 on: (16:17:55/05-25-11) »
Quote
[having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

A carbine isn't an SMG. Never has been. A carbine is a smaller AR.
If it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.
Because both a SMG and an AR use the same skill there's no reason to pick an SMG if you can get a gun thats no bigger but does same damage as AR or even a BR.

It's just a difference in perspective and nomenclature.

 When you say SMG you mean the SR4 weapon class.

When he says SMG, he means a long gun that fires pistol ammo (the non-SR definition of the term).

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Mäx

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« Reply #28 on: (16:32:39/05-25-11) »
It's just a difference in perspective and nomenclature.

 When you say SMG you mean the SR4 weapon class.

When he says SMG, he means a long gun that fires pistol ammo (the non-SR definition of the term).
Actually i was using it as an indication of Size, because thats the part that matters for game balance.
So i included in it actual SMG:s, PDF:s, carbines and SBR:s
« Last Edit: (16:35:07/05-25-11) by Mäx »
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Cass100199

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« Reply #29 on: (17:32:04/05-25-11) »
Quote
if it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.

You're wrong again, but at least consistent. I can make a shotgun the size of an SMG; smaller actually. Doesn't make it an SMG. I can draw whiskers on my a** and say "meow" every time I fart; doesn't make me a cat. A carbine is a shortened assault rifle that fires assault rifle ammunition. SMG's fire pistol ammunition at a high rate of speed. And that is the source of the question: why were carbines lumped in with SMG's, when they should have been put in with AR's and, maybe, some range modifications.
« Last Edit: (17:38:41/05-25-11) by Cass100199 »
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