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Carbines and SMG's

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Cass100199

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« on: <05-24-11/0943:11> »
Why are carbines listed under SMG's. A carbine is just a shortened version of an assault rifle and typically has the same range, stopping power, etc. An SMG uses pistol ammo. They are not the same. So what was the justification for lumping them together?
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #1 on: <05-24-11/1016:52> »
I'll probably be smote into oblivion for stating this, but...I would guess, from what I've seen, that the writers weren't really experts on firearms.

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Professional Knowledge - Firearms Design 2

I'm not saying that to be a jerk, or to claim that I am an expert...(but I am a professional)...I can say that their nomenclature and many design details relating to the in-game weapons are definitely game-centric, rather than realistically oriented.

Which I am FINE with, by the way - there's also Elves and Trolls and Dragons.

My guess is that they did a bit of research and read that carbines are often chambered for a smaller round than their full-sized counterparts, and extrapolated that into the result you see.  Or...just figured they were smaller and therefore shoot smaller bullets.

Or they decided that a SMG-sized weapon firing Rifle damage rounds would make all SMGs obsolete.

Dunno. If I wanted realistic weapon damage, I guess I'd dust off CP2020, again and house-rule in Dragons.

Anyway - my solution was to use the AR rules for weapon modification to build an SBR. Yeah, I use a lot of my modification slots to make the weapon smaller, but I get the power of a rifle in the SMG-sized package.

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Cass100199

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« Reply #2 on: <05-24-11/1105:29> »
I think what I'll do is just give carbine AR damage and use the stats in the books for the subs (ex.: the Colt sub in 9mm or .45 ACP).
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #3 on: <05-24-11/1135:14> »
I'll probably be smote into oblivion for stating this, but...I would guess, from what I've seen, that the writers weren't really experts on firearms.

Nah, this is pretty much old news.

The gun nuts complain about pretty much every new gear book that comes out because of this.



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farothel

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« Reply #4 on: <05-24-11/1221:51> »
If you have a shorter weapon, that means that it will have less range, as barrel lenght is proportional to range (other factors play also of course).  It will also mean that the round probably has less velocity, hence a bit less damage.  Is this enough to classify carbines with the SMGs?  I don't know, but they are less powerful as full assault riffles, otherwise armies would take those, as smaller weapons are easier to use (and weigh less).

That's also why bullpup designs (action behind the trigger group, giving you a shorter weapon for the same barrel lenght) are so popular with urban fighters (like SWAT and other counter-terror groups), as they pack the same punch for a shorter and therefore more manouverable weapon (specially in buildings).
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Cass100199

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« Reply #5 on: <05-24-11/1228:44> »
If you have a shorter weapon, that means that it will have less range, as barrel lenght is proportional to range (other factors play also of course).  It will also mean that the round probably has less velocity, hence a bit less damage.  Is this enough to classify carbines with the SMGs?  I don't know, but they are less powerful as full assault riffles, otherwise armies would take those, as smaller weapons are easier to use (and weigh less).

That's also why bullpup designs (action behind the trigger group, giving you a shorter weapon for the same barrel lenght) are so popular with urban fighters (like SWAT and other counter-terror groups), as they pack the same punch for a shorter and therefore more manouverable weapon (specially in buildings).

That's not entirely true. The M4 Carbine has a negligible range difference from the standard M16 (I think it's about 50m). The stopping power of a weapon is based on caliber, not the rifle. The US military has commonly fielded a carbine for several years now as its standard weapon.

The bullpup thing isn't popular in the states. Commonly, a variation of the AR style carbine is used or an SMG of some sort.
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Mäx

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« Reply #6 on: <05-24-11/1253:22> »
So what was the justification for lumping them together?
The same as lumping all SMG:s together,all AR:s together and all machine pistols together, so mostly game balance and the fact that damage range of all guns is too small to have more different categories with their own DV and AP values.
So automatics are divided in 3 size categories and only have one DV and AP value for each category.
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Cass100199

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« Reply #7 on: <05-24-11/1315:52> »
And this is why caliber information would be useful.
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Mäx

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« Reply #8 on: <05-24-11/1326:20> »
And this is why caliber information would be useful.
Well you pretty much would have to redesing the whole weapons stat system from ground up if you want to make use of caliber information.
But this is mostly a balance issue(Carbins being lumped with SMG:s), after all an SMG that has the same damage code as a battle rifle would be kinda OP.
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savaze

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« Reply #9 on: <05-24-11/1340:29> »
Though the military says the M4 has the same range as the M16 it does not... The round may travel roughly as far in either platform, it's effective range is a whole lot shorter in the carbine due to that whole losing up to 8" of barrel. The M4 can't even use the same zeroing techniques for the M16 because it's not nearly as accurate. The carbine is usually in lighter rifle/pdw rounds, but there are aftermarket conversions to pistol calibers (some are starting to come stock in them).

I'm in the process of expanding the firearms rules, by:
  • modifying ranges (by platform/barrel & ammunition) and even included a range beyond extreme I simply called "Maximum" at a -10 since the maximum range on ammo for the platforms in RAW can vary anywhere from 3-30 times whats listed as extreme which is closer to effective ranges IRL.
  • platform classification (3 pistol, 2 smg, 3 combat rifle, 2 sniper, 3 mg, 3 shotgun) which can effect DV, RC, AP, range, etc in different calibers
  • build-your-own-rules (platform, loading mechanism, caliber, modes) which allow for platforms to be configured in different kinds of ammo (e.g. carbine in medium pistol or light rifle ammo).
  • arbitrary calibers (based on recoil and recommended firearm weight per cartridge) for those that keep asking about it
  • info on the different platforms that include barrel length, weight, and OAL.
  • redoing the crazy ammo, which seems to be a lot of it (some are as simple as name changes, but some required an overhaul) as well as rules on making new ammo (there are now ten different caliber classifications - 3 pistol, 1 pdw, 2 rifle, 2 sniper, 2 shotgun not including shot/slug which are different kinds of ammo in the same caliber).

I've tested the guns to the canon and so far it all fits fairly well, except for some of the damage changes I did on larger calibers and the effects of recoil/AP with calibers in different platforms. I'm sitting on it now and seeing if I can balance it any more, then I'll get around to remembering my Excel skills so I can make it a lot more simplified (a series of drop-down lists that spout the info on the side). I've thought of redoing concealability rules for firearms, but that's just as large a project and a little more far reaching...

Cass100199

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« Reply #10 on: <05-24-11/1345:04> »
The only difference in accuracy for an m16 and m4 is after 300m. I've been shooting both for the past 12 years.

The rules sound interesting.
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savaze

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« Reply #11 on: <05-24-11/1358:06> »
The only difference in accuracy for an m16 and m4 is after 300m. I've been shooting both for the past 12 years.

The rules sound interesting.
I qualified with both and used them extensively while in the Army... I'll just agree to disagree with you. I had my brother review the expanded rules last night (he was the designated marksmen in his infantry group toting the M14 with the underbarrel 203) and he said the damage still looked low, but I told him I'm trying to keep it close to the same beast with a lot of new limbs. It's for those that want to play 4e with 3e depth.

Cass100199

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« Reply #12 on: <05-24-11/1408:05> »
Quote
qualified with both and used them extensively while in the Army...

Maybe I'm just a better shot.  ;)

Honestly, I've never had accuracy issues, especially once we started using CCO's.

I might have missed it, but are you going to incorporate modular weapons with the different drop in barrels (length/ calibers)? That would open up the variety.
« Last Edit: <05-24-11/1759:27> by Cass100199 »
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CanRay

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« Reply #13 on: <05-24-11/2013:14> »
What I'd like to know are where are the rules for burning your eyebrows off for using a SMG-Sized Assault Rifle.   :P
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Charybdis

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« Reply #14 on: <05-24-11/2055:12> »
What I'd like to know are where are the rules for burning your eyebrows off for using a SMG-Sized Assault Rifle.   :P
- Critical glitch occurs on 2's instead of 1's. That'l do it.

- No reaction test (due to surprise)
- Take Bullet base damage, 1/2 Impact armour for elemental fire effect.
- If any physical damage is taken, eyebrows are lost and you suffer a -2 modifier to all social tests (except for Clown/Mime make-up, which now has a +2 bonus modifier)
- Eyebrows can be healed according to GM requirements (Magic, Full recovery, Bacta tanks...whatever floats your boat )

Sound fair?
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