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Spy Games!

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Prime Mover

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« Reply #45 on: <05-24-11/1043:48> »
Curious.  Are the fractured spirits of Denver updated in Spygames?
Why do things happen the way they happen? For
all I know the world Is Just one big game and all of
our actions are determined by the roll of a die.
-  Dunkelzahn,  Great-Dragon

Crimsondude

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« Reply #46 on: <05-24-11/1139:46> »
I wouldn't say updated, but they do play a role.

People not reading the 40% of the book that is Denver are missing the parts of the book where we're actually affecting metaplot, which makes it a lot easier to say that we're not since they've gone full ostrich in the one section where of course that material actually demands to be included. Excuse me. I'm rambling.

The spirits of Denver are covered in the book. I am disappointed one of the more all-out amusing ideas didn't make it in, though.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #47 on: <05-28-11/1254:51> »
OBTW, I put the UGB in Counterintelligence because of the political officers material as well as the fact that as far as CI goes, they are by far the craziest and most likely to do something. Plus, you know, between their offensive and defensive CI, especially as it relates to magic and Resonance, and the British having a global offensive CI program you get a nice nod to The Great Game. Perhaps the magic aspect would have been more clear if I had the word count to cover their business in Yakut.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #48 on: <06-02-11/1012:06> »
I love it when people focus on part of one thirty-page chapter in 176-page book as broad as this book's scope is.

Unfortunately, this is the state of the current gamer.

Regardless of system, they WILL pick apart rules sets to the minutest degree, and will find and complain about the slightest problem.

It's best to just use this behavior as free playtesting feedback.



-k

CanRay

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« Reply #49 on: <06-02-11/1349:31> »
KI, this is the Internet, it's not just the state of gaming.  :P
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Crimsondude

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« Reply #50 on: <06-02-11/1703:24> »
The funniest thing I've seen was on Dumpshock. I can't comment there, but I read the SG and SL threads (Man ... That book). Nath was commenting about how it's espionage/HUMINT-focused; specifically mine and Critias' chapters (the ones titled Tradecraft and Counterintelligence. Guess what they're about) and the lack of info on SIGINT and such.

That's hilarious.

1) SIGINT and ELINT and all that noise is in SOTA64. It has some value for alternate PC campaigns in a pure intel campaign. For the purposes of integrating into normal campaigns? Not so much.

2) I think my position has been pretty g-d clear on this for years, and especially since I've been on this board rambling about the book for nine months. It's so clear in fact that I made the Espionage and Shadows PDF that same year SOTA64 came out because it didn't do much to integrate espionage into ongoing campaigns.

3) Which brings me to: I've been a fan of espionage longer than SR, and I started playing SR in 1992. We could have done a writeup similar to Szeto's, which is what I was expecting (and how EXPINT came to pass in the form it's in, AFAIK) with little blurbs on HUMINT, SIGINT, TECHINT, and shit that if you are so inclined can be found explained in excrutiating detail all over the Internet and shelves of books. The entire point of our chapters (And I can speak for Critias because we've been at this for a while) was to give readers a taste of what you cannot find anywhere else. As a side note, of course it's HUMINT-heavy when you involve runners. After playing SR for 20 years and spending a goodly number of those years playing in and GMing espionage-heavy/dominant/based/related/mentioned games I can tell you one inescapable fact: The most straightforward SIGINT op (SIGINT is boring, btw, but that's beside the point), once runners are involved, becomes a Metahuman-based field operation. Period. Deniable decking job? Close-in SIGINT support like the ISA and CSS does/did/never existed to do? Reference work of any kind? All end up relying on the human element. I mean, fuck, one of my regular co-gamers' main PC was a NSA combat decker. He spent more time shooting people in the face than decking because when he did his stats and deck were so insane that he just annihilated the opposition. IMO, Bamford's books on NSA (no "the," btw. Their policy) are only interesting for the political intrigue that, oh wait, that strays into human espionage/intrigue ... You show me a game where a table obsesses over a crypto pattern and I'll show you an empty table.

Besides that, SOTA64 does still exist. There is this thing called a back library, and aside from UB if you want an old, even OOP, book it's damn easy to find on eBay, etailers, LCS/LGSes (support your local stores, damn it!), etc. SOTA64 is six or seven years old. It's not a lost jewel requiring adventure to find. There's also this SR fandom thing on the Internet that I hear may be going places. Or so's the word on GENie and usenet. *shrugs*
« Last Edit: <06-02-11/1705:58> by Crimsondude »

bigity

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« Reply #51 on: <06-02-11/1944:51> »
All that's true, but what's also true is that SR attracts more techno-dweebs and nerds than other games, IMO.  Including ex-military guys who worked in intel and would expect a spy book to cover some of those details.  Doesn't mean the book is bad or worthless, but you can't discount the desire for some of that detail/fluff to be there.

It's at least as reasonable as statting Serrin Shamandar or Lowfyr, which is what's coming out next.

Nath

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« Reply #52 on: <06-03-11/1323:42> »
For the record, my comments.
Quote
While not being only a Denver sourcebook, Spy Games is not a pure espionage sourcebook. Actually, the authors focused a lot on HUMINT and action : James Bond, Alias, Burn Notice, you pick your favorite. And I mean A LOT. SIGINT does not exist in this book. It is somewhat significant that the NSA only mention in the entire book is page 172, in the list of agencies. There is also no mention of reconnaissance satellites.

Part of the problem is, you cannot really draw a line between shadowrunners and spies. It's not like industrial espionage and deniability were of no concern to spies. Shadowrunners were the answer to the ethnic homogeneity of Japanese corporate intelligence services, the absence or relative weakness of "patriotism" among their employees, and the generalization of biometric border controls (compare to Mahmoud al-Mabhoud assassination in Dubai IRL, where Mossad likely burned two dozens of elite operatives whose biometrics are now known by every security services in the world). As far as Spy Games goes, the difference only lies in assets handling and costly hi-tech toys. Everything else spies do, the runners do as well, just on a different scale. A SIGINT chapter would have been carved out of Unwired for the most part (which would still have been better that, say, introducing a Terahertz radar that does the same thing than the Arsenal ultrawide band radar, with different rules).
This time I put a red emphasis on the sentence I insinuated the absence of SIGINT in Spy Games is probably a good thing.

I agree with you on having in a sourcebook what you can't find on the Internet and bookshelves. Which makes the small amount of information on magic in Spy Games all the more regrettable (and that from a guy with no lost love on magic !).

Regarding all your ramblings of the past years, sorry, I don't remember them.

hobgoblin

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« Reply #53 on: <06-05-11/1243:54> »
Err, am i reading it right that i can take a Aztech Crawler, add a weapon mount and a SMG to it, and hide it in my shoe?! (ignoring the Arsenal 1 mount pr 3 body, round up stuff)

Also, how fast can one deploy or repack a drone in a case?
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wylie

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« Reply #54 on: <06-05-11/1854:19> »
hey Bull

nice pugin about you in the book

Bull

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« Reply #55 on: <06-05-11/1925:50> »
Outside of review a few chapters as they were posted to proof a bit, I haven't had the chance to read Spy Games yet :)  What/where/who said what about me (or at least my alter ego :))

hobgoblin

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« Reply #56 on: <06-05-11/2120:04> »
Bull makes a comment about unused tunnels...

heh, as if alligators in the sewers where not bad enough. Now there is talk about a "hypnosquid"...

oops, actually there are several shadowtalks from the old ork.

i guess the big reference is the "urgent message" on page 150, that allows a certain sig line to be mentioned ;)
« Last Edit: <06-05-11/2126:26> by hobgoblin »
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #57 on: <06-05-11/2131:28> »
Btw, i suspect Spy games may be as big a treasure trove for hackers/drone riggers/gadget heads.

all manner of fun dohikies that can be used in various ways. hell, scan gloves may be a permanent part of the hacker wardrobe. Who knows when some Johnson bring a icky hardcopy to the meet?
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #58 on: <06-05-11/2232:40> »
I like writing Bull as the moral conscience of JackPoint.

As much as Critias' and my chapters are similar because of the overlaps and that they're about how this stuff is applied to running, I think I made the difference pretty clear in the first two sentences of my chapter.
Quote from: Spy Games, 122
A wizened “grey man” once told me that intelligence is being able to look someone in the eye and convince them to commit a hanging crime.
Counterintelligence is the hangman.
« Last Edit: <06-05-11/2235:47> by Crimsondude »

hobgoblin

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« Reply #59 on: <06-06-11/1421:48> »
Heh, kinesics mastery reminds me of the bene geserit having one verbal conversation, and one non-verbal at the same time.
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