NEWS

Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system

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Mäx

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« Reply #15 on: (13:20:58/05-14-11) »
Not in my games.  ;)
You making big changes to the world and then making comments based on that doesn't really have any place in conversations like this.  8)
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #16 on: (14:17:58/05-14-11) »
Yeah, it's generally assumed that unless you say otherwise, you're talking about the rules as written.

If you're discussing a houserule, it's good form to let people know that first.



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Cass100199

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« Reply #17 on: (17:25:41/05-14-11) »
How is that a big change? So anyone, especially without a SIN, can walk into a big box and go grocery shopping for all the latest and greatest? No, that's asinine. That's not just a house rule; it's common sense with a dose of reality. The great stuff doesn't just fall off the back of a truck. It has to be acquired. Then it's marked up significantly. And the fixers and dealers are gonna save the best merch for their primo clients. Beginning runners get common goods. What they can find easily on the streets.
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Mäx

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« Reply #18 on: (17:44:06/05-14-11) »
How is that a big change? So anyone, especially without a SIN, can walk into a big box and go grocery shopping for all the latest and greatest?
Caseless ammo isn't latest and greatest, it's old as hell technology that is just as commonly available as cased ammo.
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Cass100199

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« Reply #19 on: (17:59:16/05-14-11) »
So if you go into Bass Pro Shops, or Walmart, right now you can pick up caseless ammo? Not that I've seen. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen it.

Point is this. Those kinds of items are regulated now, in a fairly unregulated gun owning society. So, in the imaginary future of 2070 where Corps and gov'ts have a vested interest in controlling access (especially to the SINless and potential runners), do you really think it would be easier? Do you really think a brand new runner has the contacts or resources to purchase a whole bunch of brand new, TOL equipment? How does that make the slightest bit of sense.
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Mäx

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« Reply #20 on: (18:07:20/05-14-11) »
Those kinds of items are regulated now, in a fairly unregulated gun owning society.
What kind of items are you talking about, there are 0 guns that use caseless ammo out in the general market, mostly because they haven't gotten it to work yeat.
Do you really think a brand new runner has the contacts or resources to purchase a whole bunch of brand new, TOL equipment?
But in shadowruns world every single firearm in existence is available as using caseless ammo or cased ammo, what ever the buyer prefers and there are no legal difference  what so ever between the 2.
So the new runner doesn't need anykind of special contacts or recources to buy caseless ammo or the guns firing them.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Rockopolis

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« Reply #21 on: (18:07:45/05-14-11) »
Alternatively, could you have imagined thirty years ago, anyone owning a computer?  And something with more processing power than what we sent to the Moon is commonplace now.

I can go down to the local Walmart for regular ammo.  When caseless ammo become standard, and cased ammo becomes a weirdo historical thing (like blackpowder), I assume it will be standard.
And, as an anecdote I don't get to use often enough, I where I used to live I could bike down to the local range/store and buy grenades.  Or an 'airplane shooting down' Barrett rifle.

I generally joked about going down to the local 'Ammu-nation'.  While they might have a vested interest in control, they have a bigger interest in making bank.  And hiring those self-same runners for work.  And possibly pay-per-view SINless gunfights.
« Last Edit: (18:23:15/05-14-11) by Rockopolis »
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Operator

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« Reply #22 on: (18:17:27/05-14-11) »
Cass, I don't understand the importance that you're trying to impart to caseless weapons and ammunition that makes it separate from cased guns and ammo. If you're attempting to say that they are preferable to cased ammo for evidence concerns, then your players should have a heads-up warning at the start of the game.

Since there's little in the way of benefits associated with cased/caseless ammo aside of electronic firing, I am led to believe that it is not an area of weapon design and runner methodology that needs additional gameplay emphasis. If runners use caseless ammo to commit their crimes, what's stopping Shadowrun-era CSI techniques from analyzing propellant residues and markings left behind?
« Last Edit: (18:20:30/05-14-11) by Operator »

Rockopolis

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« Reply #23 on: (18:24:32/05-14-11) »
Or, you know, DNA evidence.  An ammo catcher bag (looks dorky as all hell, but it catches the cases coming out of your gun) is cheap; Genewipe costs an arm and a leg.
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Cass100199

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« Reply #24 on: (18:26:03/05-14-11) »
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mostly because they haven't gotten it to work yeat.

Yes, they do have working weapons with caseless ammo. The Army tested them out. I would imagine if you can buy a machine gun with a class 3 license, then something like this wouldn't be that hard to get beyond availability.

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Cass, I don't understand the importance

It wasn't important. I make changes in my games that make logical sense to me. Personally, I prefer a dose of reality to my sci-fi and fantasy. Different strokes for different folks. My only reason for responding further is the inaccurate idea that I'm making "big" changes to the universe. That's just plain silly.

The computer is a bad analogy. The computer was never designed with the intent to kill or maim. Of course some people have used it as such, but oh well. Firearms, of course, are different. To assume that gun laws and availability would become more lax in a decidedly more authoritarian world makes no sense. It makes no sense that you would think/ allow a brand new group of runners to better armed than the elite of the elite (Red Samurai, Wildcats, etc.). So, once again. I'm not saying your game is wrong. Neither is mine.
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Mäx

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« Reply #25 on: (18:33:51/05-14-11) »
My only reason for responding further is the inaccurate idea that I'm making "big" changes to the universe. That's just plain silly.
It doesn't matter whether you think its a big change or not, if your basing your post on that change, you better mention it or just not post the comment at all as it has no place on a discussion about the actual shadowrun world.

And yes changing caseless ammo to top of the line brand new tech is pretty damm big change to the world.
In the standart shadowrun world the caseless ammo has been the standart for 20+ years.
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Rockopolis

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« Reply #26 on: (18:38:17/05-14-11) »
Cool, cool.  For me, this is like picking at a scab.  I shouldn't do it, but it's so tempting.

...though I wonder how hard it is to make?  Like, there's a ton of Kalashnikovs floating around the third world, and I've heard a bunch are locally produced.  Maybe there's some Stanistani warlord making a bundle shipping boatloads of cheap caseless ammo.
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Cass100199

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« Reply #27 on: (18:41:46/05-14-11) »
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you better mention it or just not post the comment at all as it has no place on a discussion about the actual shadowrun world.

::) Really? Would you like me to ask your permission to log on to my computer as well. This is general Shadowrun discussion. I'm pretty sure "the rules" is further down the page. Whatever dude.

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it doesn't matter whether you think its a big change or not

Yeah. Doesn't matter if you do either.

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Maybe there's some Stanistani warlord making a bundle shipping boatloads of cheap caseless ammo.

Now this I could run with. Something logical or at least thought. Assumptions just annoy the hell out of me.


« Last Edit: (18:48:39/05-14-11) by Cass100199 »
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Mäx

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« Reply #28 on: (18:49:51/05-14-11) »
This is general Shadowrun discussion.
Key word being Shadowrun, if you make comments based on your personal game world and not the standard one, it's common courtesy to mention all the relevant differences, helps to avoid a whole lot of confusion.

Yes, they do have working weapons with caseless ammo. The Army tested them out. I would imagine if you can buy a machine gun with a class 3 license, then something like this wouldn't be that hard to get beyond availability.
If you know any other then H&K G11 i would like a link for info, G11 you cant buy because they didn't make much more then 1000 of them AFAIK and H&K doesn't really like to sell stuff to civilians as far as i have understood from comments of people who would like to get their hands on to their guns.
« Last Edit: (18:56:43/05-14-11) by Mäx »
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Cass100199

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« Reply #29 on: (19:26:51/05-14-11) »
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they didn't make much more then 1000

Glad you found the wiki. And anything can be bought. If you can buy a machine gun legally, I think it's logical that one of these can be purchased. Guess it depends on availability!  :o

If you google "hk", the first page that pops up is a link to H&K North America. They have a whole section devoted to civilian firearms. The H&K 556 is popular, if not overpriced. The USP .45 is a very popular handgun; probably the most popular non-1911 .45's. You can even get it with a threaded barrel for a silencer, which can be purchased with a class 3 license.

If you google caseless ammo rifles, a whole bunch of options pop up. The guns exist. From what I've seen it's the availability and price of ammo that make them a very niche product.
« Last Edit: (19:30:28/05-14-11) by Cass100199 »
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