NEWS

Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system

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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #30 on: <05-14-11/1928:30> »
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you better mention it or just not post the comment at all as it has no place on a discussion about the actual shadowrun world.

::) Really? Would you like me to ask your permission to log on to my computer as well. This is general Shadowrun discussion. I'm pretty sure "the rules" is further down the page. Whatever dude.

I said it before, there needs to be a basis of reference. Without anything else modifying the conversations, people entering into the discussion are going to assume you are talking about the unmodified rules as written.

If you are discussing something else, it it just common courtesy to let the other folks you are talking to know this.

If you jumped into a discussion on chess, the assumption would be that you are discussing the standard chess rules. If you wanted to discuss a variant you had come up with, you should start off saying it's a variant, not just jump in as if it ere part of the regular rules and then act all surprised when people get confused.

Really, at heart, it is about conveying your message effectively. If the person you are talking to does not have the same frame of reference as you do, any discussion will inevitably cause confusion and lessen the impact of what you are trying to say.



-k

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #31 on: <05-14-11/1933:28> »
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they didn't make much more then 1000

Glad you found the wiki.

If you google "hk", the first page that pops up is a link to H&K North America. They have a whole section devoted to civilian firearms. The H&K 556 is popular, if not overpriced. The USP .45 is a very popular handgun; probably the most popular non-1911 .45's. You can even get it with a threaded barrel for a silencer, which can be purchased with a class 3 license.

If you google caseless ammo rifles, a whole bunch of options pop up. The guns exist. From what I've seen it's the availability and price of ammo that make them a very niche product.

He probably didn't need the wiki. The G11 is a favorite of many gamers. I'd point out that while I don't know Max's background, there are quite a number of current and former military folks on the Shadowrun boards, so extensive personal knowledge of firearms isn't uncommon here.

There is only one production line model of a caseless ammunition weapon in existence in the world today. And that one has barely shipped to any customers.

There have been other developmental prototypes made in the past, but nothing that had made it to open usage. Just about all of them have been rejected for production by various governments for various reasons.



-k
« Last Edit: <05-14-11/1936:15> by KarmaInferno »

Cass100199

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« Reply #32 on: <05-14-11/1937:41> »
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There are no production line models of a caseless ammunition weapon in existence in the world today. Period.

Umm...that's just flat out wrong, but I'm not going to argue with you about it. Simple research proves that wrong.

As I said, I'm easy. I'm not saying anyone's game is wrong. But stating that I'm making "big changes" to the world and trying to prove so is just stupid.

« Last Edit: <05-14-11/1940:23> by Cass100199 »
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #33 on: <05-14-11/1945:05> »
Apologies. There is one. I have modified my message to reflect this.

Does this change the conversation any?

Again, the point is not whether changes are wrong, or if they're big or small. The point is that unless you should let people know that you are not talking about what they are talking about. Common courtesy. That's all.



-k
« Last Edit: <05-14-11/1946:41> by KarmaInferno »

Cass100199

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« Reply #34 on: <05-14-11/1950:39> »
Two actually. Daisy tried to call there's an "air rifle" but the BATF said, no. lol

That was never the point, though. As I said, I make changes to my games that make sense to me. I base those decisions on some sort of logical application. Okay, Okay I didn't put up the neon sign saying that was my house rule. Got it. Still the topic is availability and whatnot so I offered my two cents. I was apparently wrong for sharing a perspective that kept anyone's favorite Street Sam from buying TOL toys when they just started their professional criminal career. I'll know better next time.  :-X
You can't tell me what toys I can play with.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #35 on: <05-14-11/1955:58> »
Thank you. You'll notice how badly the discussion got derailed? This is why it's a good idea to make sure people know what you're talking about.

I will admit I had forgotten about the Voere and Daisy rifles. They have had so little penetration into the gun market that I had I guess mentally dismissed them as insignificant. I do recall the Daisy, aside from the BATF ruling, had potential ammo problems with temperature, as the glob of propellent on the rear or each bullet was ignited by hot air. Not something I'd want in my house.



-k
« Last Edit: <05-14-11/2003:27> by KarmaInferno »

Rockopolis

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« Reply #36 on: <05-14-11/2010:06> »
Of course, if the players really want that weapon?  Roll up a Logic 13 Armorer 7 badass and build it themselves.  In a CAVE!  With a box of scraps!
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Cass100199

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« Reply #37 on: <05-14-11/2015:15> »
I knew a guy who collected niche weapons and that's the first I'd heard of the Voere. I started doing a lot of research on caseless ammo about 6 years ago. I was p****d that we (US Army) was spending so much on the XM8 when we could just get everyone a carbine and be done with it. During the testing I came across the various incarnations of weapons to replace the M2, newer squad machine guns, etc.
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Exodus

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« Reply #38 on: <05-14-11/2133:54> »
My 2cents about this.

1. The historical problem with caseless ammo is that the casing itself is a wonderful vehicle for heat to be ejected cleanly out of the weapon, caseless weapons have issues with heat buildup and ammo cookoff. In 2070 they have fixed this to the point that having casings raining from your AK-97 is a purely aesthetic choice, that and leaving evidence behind.

2. Availability in 2070, it's my opinion that there's 2 very broad tiers of equipment and gear in the world of Shadowrun. There's the weapons and gear and commlinks that we see in the books all statted out for our viewing pleasure and there's the crap that the wageslaves buy. There have been several mentions of vending-machine grade commlinks and clothing and I feel that if you went to KongWalMart to pick up ammo you'd get Light Pistol plinking rounds that apply a -1 DV penalty for their low production quality and the round fails to fire on a glitch, on a critical glitch the round fails to fire and fires off on the next initiative pass.
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Rockopolis

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« Reply #39 on: <05-14-11/2225:48> »
Hah!  If you really don't want to have to deal with shell casings or caseless ammo, get yourself an Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle; no shellcasings, and often no target, either. ;D
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savaze

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« Reply #40 on: <05-14-11/2227:19> »
Caseless Ammo, lots of advantages.

Now, the question is:  Who has swapped out their barrels/ditched and replaced firearms?  Hey, look at that, all those 'Runs you made against the various corporations, all the security companies are actually owned by one Mega, and they DO share data between them.  Oops.

That's why I swear by AK-97s.  Cheap, replaceable.
That's why I'm convinced that RFID rounds are the standard market stuff and 'Regular' ammo is black market only stuff...

IRL there are several varieties of caseless ammo floating around that's been talked about in other threads. As far as weapons that get research contracts, like a lot of H&K and Colt weapons (I agree with this Class III dealer that hk isn't nearly on par with what you pay for), but that's politics in it purest form.

Exodus

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« Reply #41 on: <05-14-11/2237:00> »
I'm going to include that RFID-stamped ammo for civilians biz in my game now. If the team shakes down some civvie and gets a measly 2P gutshot from a holdout for their troubles then they ought to have to worry about the cops doing something about it.
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Mäx

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« Reply #42 on: <05-15-11/0358:22> »
If you google "hk", the first page that pops up is a link to H&K North America. They have a whole section devoted to civilian firearms. The H&K 556 is popular, if not overpriced. The USP .45 is a very popular handgun; probably the most popular non-1911 .45's. You can even get it with a threaded barrel for a silencer, which can be purchased with a class 3 license.
Yes they have a very small selection of civilian guns. But, really the only reason you can't buy MP5 or G36 is that H&K just flat out doesn't want to sell them to you. there's really nothing special about their much larger non-civilian line that would legally stop you from buying them if they would just sell them.
I was apparently wrong for sharing a perspective that kept anyone's favorite Street Sam from buying TOL toys when they just started their professional criminal career. I'll know better next time.  :-X
No thats not it in the least, the problem was you changing caeless ammo into top of the line gear without mentioning it and then basing your comment to that change, when the rest of us are basing our answers to the following line from the gear section.
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Firearms
Firearms are primarily slug-throwers. Many weapons offer two versions,
for standard loads or for caseless ammunition, though the latter is far
more common in the 2070s. A weapon can fire either type of ammunition,
but not both interchangeably.
That same line has been in every corebook of the whole game,they just change the year.
« Last Edit: <05-15-11/0423:40> by Mäx »
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Operator

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« Reply #43 on: <05-15-11/0442:45> »
I'm going to include that RFID-stamped ammo for civilians biz in my game now. If the team shakes down some civvie and gets a measly 2P gutshot from a holdout for their troubles then they ought to have to worry about the cops doing something about it.

I knew that there was a good reason for taking a tag eraser in chargen. ;)

CanRay

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« Reply #44 on: <05-15-11/1125:23> »
Tag Eraser built into your Lined Duster is one of the best investments you can make.  :D
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