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When do you choose which kind of Full Defense to use?

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Usda Beph

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« Reply #60 on: <09-17-10/1411:36> »
Chummer, Jack. Both of your arguements are giving me a headache! How can someone "fully defend" against 2 seperate attackers at 2 different ranges?Either you fully defend against My Sword attack OR you fully defend (ie dodge?) against My Teammate's ranged weapons fire. Each attack is exclusive of the other when it comes to Fully defending.

I realize I'm a newb to the run, but not combat. Explain to me how (without dice rolls) one can fully defend versus a swordsman in his face while being shot at from behind? You either face the sword and pay full attention to it or you face the gun and pay full attention to that? No matter what they counter any intent to fully defend.

So both of you please explain your understandings so I can understand the rule.
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Bradd

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« Reply #61 on: <09-17-10/1423:02> »
How can someone "fully defend" against 2 seperate attackers at 2 different ranges?

That's just how Full Dodge normally works. You get improved defense against everyone who attacks you until the start of your next action phase. However, there are some penalties involved, which may address your objection. When you're in melee, you suffer -3 to defense versus ranged attacks, and when you're attacked multiple times, you're -1 for ever attacker after the first. Therefore, if you do try to parry and dodge at the same time, you'll be at -1/-3 or -0/-4 depending on which order they attack you in. If your Dodge skill is less than 4, your ranged "full" defense in melee is still worse than your full defense outside of melee. Make sense?

Usda Beph

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« Reply #62 on: <09-17-10/1502:25> »
This by no means take simo attacks into account but then again this is rules from the same folk who brought us super sonic balls of metal that stop being able to do damage at 660 meters! Two attack maybe but most runners only have two arms/legs and can be attacked by up to 4 or more attack at once. I do assume that dice pools are split against the number of attackers right?
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Bradd

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« Reply #63 on: <09-17-10/1542:31> »
No, you don't split dice pools, you just get a -1 (cumulative) penalty for each defense after the first. That happens regardless of whether it's ranged, melee, multiple directions, whatever. Then there are additional defense penalties for things like being shot at while you're in melee, or attacked from behind.

anotherJack

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« Reply #64 on: <09-18-10/0420:32> »
Well, you see Bradd, on the Full defense basic rule we can agree ^^
Usda, taking the classic Full defense means you actively work to avoid any attack you're conscious of. For somebody which is not augmented, it means he makes nothing else, so yes, he can defend from many attacks. If he doesn't take the full defense option, he defends as normal, with very limited dice pools, and most of the time it'll simply avoid him 1-2 damages, and the modifier for multiples attacks still applies.

Quote
You get improved defense against everyone who attacks you until the start of your next action phase.
If I'm not wrong, it's until your next action, which is not exactly the same. I have to check this.
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voydangel

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« Reply #65 on: <09-18-10/1345:42> »
I was caught off guard by the "next action phase" as well, always thought it was until next initiative, but I checked, it is only until next action phase... hmmm, that makes a bit of a difference.
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Bradd

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« Reply #66 on: <09-18-10/1445:45> »
SR4A, p. 65: "The point during each Combat Turn when a specific character can act is called an Action Phase." Colloquially we call this your "action" or your "turn." If you take Full Defense on your turn, it lasts until your next turn. If you take it between your turns (an interrupt action), then it lasts until your next turn, at which time you sacrifice your complex action to pay for it. That means if you want to use it again, you'll need to interrupt again.

Waratah

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« Reply #67 on: <10-19-10/2236:23> »
The question I have is how many interupts can you have in a single initiative pass?

Dakka

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« Reply #68 on: <10-19-10/2243:56> »
Thread Necromancer :P

You can only use one future action to interrupt with, so once an IP.  Once you pay off that interrupt by losing your complex action for the turn you can interrupt again using your next complex action from your next IP.  Since Full Dodge lasts until your next action you can always be on full defense if you continue to sacrifice actions for it.

voydangel

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« Reply #69 on: <10-22-10/1724:25> »
Suppose that you're attacked with a sword, then a pistol. How do you handle Full Defense?

1. Full Defense is an action; use the best kind of Full Defense versus each attack.
...

2. Full Dodge, Full Parry, and Gymnastic Dodge are different actions.
...

In my game, I went with the first ruling. Otherwise, it seems to me that Full Parry is almost always a bad idea: When can you be sure that there are no gunmen around?! That meant the option never got used, and so in the few cases where it actually was useful, everyone forgot about it. Full Parry ended up being useless extra bookkeeping.

I also think a careful reading of the RAW supports the first interpretation, but I'm not totally sure. Can anyone back it up or offer a strong argument against?
In my groups we use your option #1. I'm not 100% certain it is RAW, but it makes the game more cinematic for us, and as you said, it makes Full parry not completely useless. As for supporting my choice, just remember to use the "defender has already been attacked this round" modifier rather strictly and it will balance it out.

There's actually a whole other thread on how this should be interpreted based on the usage of the martial arts maneuver "Two weapon style", but if you want to see that debate, i would recommend reading the other thread. ;) Inn the long run, I would say that this is a greay area of the RAW and should be interpreted however it works best in your group.
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Sichr

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« Reply #70 on: <01-24-11/1051:28> »
"Two Weapon Style
  A character using this maneuver has trained to wield a second melee weapon in his off hand. In order to use two weapons, each weapon must have a Reach of 0 or 1.
  The character may choose to apply the Full Defense option using only one of these weapons, attacking with the other weapon as normal (and without sacrificing an action). The defense or attack action with the off-hand weapon suffers the standard –2 off-hand weapon modifier."

You can only use weapon in melee defense, so you should use your sword, club, pistol (in Firefight) to full defense (or full parry) against the thug with a knife, while using your second weapon as usualy for the atack. that means cut, slash, thrust etc with your melee weapon and SHOT if you have a pistol or SMG (Firefight). You can`t use your melee weapon for defense against ranged attack. That does make sense, doesnt`it?

Bradd

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« Reply #71 on: <01-24-11/1547:19> »
All of these points were beat to death earlier in the discussion. The rule is full of ambiguities, and ultimately we couldn't even agree on which readings are reasonable, let alone which is the rule as intended. Why resurrect a controversial thread that's been cold since September?

I've seen a lot of thread necromancy lately. I know it's easy to do here because the archives are shallow, and you don't have to dig too deep to find a discussion from last year. But please, don't reignite controversies unless you have something definitive to add. Don't just repeat things that have already been said. (For that matter, don't just repeat things in current threads either if you can avoid it, although I know that we all get caught up in it sometimes.)

topcat

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« Reply #72 on: <01-24-11/1635:43> »
All of these points were beat to death earlier in the discussion. The rule is full of ambiguities, and ultimately we couldn't even agree on which readings are reasonable, let alone which is the rule as intended. Why resurrect a controversial thread that's been cold since September?

I've seen a lot of thread necromancy lately. I know it's easy to do here because the archives are shallow, and you don't have to dig too deep to find a discussion from last year. But please, don't reignite controversies unless you have something definitive to add. Don't just repeat things that have already been said. (For that matter, don't just repeat things in current threads either if you can avoid it, although I know that we all get caught up in it sometimes.)

Thread necromancy is a bit of a Catch-22.  Some people don't want old threads reopened, others don't want people starting new threads when the argument's already been discussed.  Sometimes, new information comes to light (e.g. errata or official rulings) and it hasn't been publicized.  Sometimes, it helps to shed new light on old problems and maybe spark an official ruling.  Other times, it's just beating a dead horse.  Those dead horses won't beat themselves, you know!

FWIW, here are my two cents (reasonable minds can differ)...

I tend toward the benefit of the defending player in my rulings.  So if you choose full defense, you get full defense to everything coming in.  You're eating negative modifiers from multiple attackers and giving up your own offensive efforts for any given pass.  Those are pretty big losses, so I don't feel bad giving a corresponding benefit (in this case, enhanced die pools for more than just one incoming attack).  Plus, it's a bit more theatrical.  Dodge the adept's glowing fist, slap aside the spurs of the nearby samurai, then twist just enough that the sharpshooter's bullet goes by your ear.  That's good stuff!  Here are the options, as I see them...

1. Full defense, full dodge: ranged = Dodge + Reaction, melee = (Dodge + Dodge + Reaction) or (Dodge + Melee Skill + Reaction)
2. Full defense, gymnastic dodge: ranged = Gymnastics + Reaction, melee = (Gymnastics + Dodge + Reaction) or (Gymnastics + Melee Skill + Reaction)
3. Full defense, full parry: ranged = Reaction, melee = (Melee Skill + Melee Skill + Reaction)

You have to choose one full dodge, gymnastic dodge, or full parry) when you select Full Defense.  When you pick one, you exclude the option to use the others.  However, within each, you choose the die pool appropriate to the type of attack you're facing.  So a character who chooses full dodge and who faces one ranged attack and two melee attacks must use Dodge + Reaction against the ranged attack, but could choose between Dodge + Dodge + Reaction or Dodge + Melee Skill + Reaction for each melee attack.  They could choose Dodge + Dodge + Reaction for one melee attack and Dodge + Melee Skill + Reaction for the other melee attack, or stick with one of the possible die pools for both.

So why would anyone choose Full Parry if they're essentially going commando against ranged?  If they have a huge melee skill and are facing multiple melee attackers, with a goal of survival over winning.  Maybe to maximize a specialization.  It's a very focused choice that makes sense in focused situations, not so much sense outside of them.  Still, it's nice to have options!

Sichr

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« Reply #73 on: <01-25-11/0146:14> »
huh srry BRADD, I didnt note that the corpse is already cold :) just been linked here from another forum (dedicated to Martial arts or Firefight i think), so I drop by my opinion...no...thats not my opinion...grrr thats RAW :D