[Bradd]

@anotherJack: We have plenty of legends of real humans deflecting and catching bullets, so I don't think you need Awakening to imagine it. It's just flavor text.

However, mechanically the Two Weapon Style rule gives you Full Defense, not Full Parry. That way, you can use Full Dodge if your (Reaction + Dodge + weapon) is better than your (Reaction + weapon x 2). Also, also consider that one of the premier two-weapon styles, kenjutsu with the dai-sho, emphasizes dodging over parrying because of the brittleness of Japanese blades. I think it makes good sense to allow all forms of Full Defense with Two Weapon Style. And if you can Full Dodge all of your melee attackers, why not all of your attackers?

[anotherJack]

So then, why use two melee weapons ? just handle a melee weapon in a hand, you don't even need to use it, and bingo ! you can full dodge for free against ranged attack ! but if you can ful dodge for free without even parrying, since you dodge, so you can full dodge for free without even the second weapon ?
Nonsense.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Don't you split your dice pool for using two weapons in combat?  Doesn't that apply to defense as well?

[Bradd]

@anotherJack: I'm not sure what you're arguing here. The Two Weapon Style rules say that you can attack and use Full Defense at the same time, if you use two weapons. You must use both weapons, presumably so that you have enough of a tactical advantage over your opponent that you can still devote your attention to defense.

How is it not parrying if you use Full Dodge (Reaction + Dodge + weapon)? For that matter, where does Two Weapon Style say that you need to parry at all? You must "use" the second weapon, but in Shadowrun that includes dodging and blocking and gymnastics, not just parrying.

Also, if they only meant to allow parries, then why doesn't the rule just say that?

@The_Gun_Nut: You split the pool for multiple attacks, but that's something different.

[anotherJack]

@ Gun Nut : the character splits only if he makes two attacks at the same time with his two weapons. If he doesn't then he makes only one attack and choose the weapon he attacks with. And yes, you split if you make multiple attacks, as usual.

@Bradd : it would mean that with 7 BP, you buy "firefight" 5BP, plus the maneuver for two weapons, 2BP, and yes, your character is always in full dodge for free, may he have a knife or a gun in the other hand, may he use it or not. Really, nonsense, totally unbalanced, and so.

If you use full dodge, you use reaction + dodge, which works against ranged attacks, OR reaction + skill + dodge / reaction + dodge + dodge, those two work only against melee attacks. So if you dodge against ranged attacks, it means you use dodge + reaction, so you juste don't need the second weapon, so this interpretation leads to a nonsense.
(sorry if it isn't clear, I try to check what I write as much as I can, but I can't really pick up my mistakes in english)

Why the rule says that ? four options :
a) they never thought somebody would think to apply this to ranged combat.
b) they just did a mistake, it's waiting for an errata.
c) they say "full defense" because the full dodge can involve the wepaon skill, but only against melee attacks, as seen above. So "full defense" is correct, but it does not mean any type of full dodge, only the melee one.
d) they did want to allow any character to be in permanent full defense without spending actions for 7 BP.

Pick up which you want.

EDIT : thanks Gun Nut, fixed !

[The_Gun_Nut]

Dodge is only added once for ranged attacks, and only if the Full Defense option is chosen.  Otherwise it is just reaction.

[FastJack]

Full Dodge (SR4a, p160):

Full Dodge: Character on full defense may add their Dodge skill to their dice pool when defending against incoming attacks. So a character on full defense against a ranged attack rolls Dodge + Reaction, whereas a character on full defense against a melee attack could roll Dodge + Dodge + Reaction, or melee combat skill + Dodge + Reaction. Full dodge may be used against both ranged and melee attacks.

[Bradd]

@anotherJack: Two Weapon Style only works with two melee weapons (Reach 0-1), and only if you attack with one of them. You can't do it with a gun, and you can't do anything besides a melee attack and Full Defense. That is definitely not free Full Defense all the time: It doesn't work with firearms, it doesn't work with magic, it doesn't work with hacking, etc. It's is very similar to the way Quickdraw works: You only get to draw the weapon for free if you're also attacking with it.

You can use a weapon in defense without necessarily using the weapon skill dice. That happens all the time with normal melee defense, if you choose (Reaction + Dodge) or (Reaction + Unarmed Combat) instead of (Reaction + weapon). Therefore, I don't agree with the insistence that Two Weapon Style only works for parrying.

I don't really see how it's totally unbalancing, either. Unless you also buy Ambidexterity or Off-Hand Training, there's a -2 penalty to the Full Defense (or the attack, if you prefer), and you'll often have another -3 penalty for melee defender versus ranged attack. You need Dodge 5 just to break even with a gunman's normal defense. Yes, it sounds awesome if you describe it as "Full Defense all the time!" but it really isn't much of an advantage, compared to what you'd get by using a gun from across the room.

(By the way, our group's gun bunny had a similar reaction to multiple attacks with melee weapons, and how unbalanced they are if you have a bunch of dice pool modifiers, because those don't get split. I pointed out that he gets two bursts every pass without needing to split his dice pool. When considering whether a melee benefit is unbalanced, first consider how many handicaps they have relative to guns. The ranged guys have all kinds of defensive advantages that they don't need to pay any BPs for.)

[anotherJack]

@anotherJack: Two Weapon Style only works with two melee weapons (Reach 0-1), and only if you attack with one of them. You can't do it with a gun, and you can't do anything besides a melee attack and Full Defense. That is definitely not free Full Defense all the time: It doesn't work with firearms, it doesn't work with magic, it doesn't work with hacking, etc. It's is very similar to the way Quickdraw works: You only get to draw the weapon for free if you're also attacking with it.

You can do it with a gun and the martial art Firefight. And you can use a gun as improvised melee weapon.

You can use a weapon in defense without necessarily using the weapon skill dice. That happens all the time with normal melee defense, if you choose (Reaction + Dodge) or (Reaction + Unarmed Combat) instead of (Reaction + weapon). Therefore, I don't agree with the insistence that Two Weapon Style only works for parrying.

Then, if you don't have to use the weapon, you don't need to use it against ranged attacks, so you don't need an second weapon against ranged attacks to use the full dodge for free. And even if you do need, imagine this :
Joe runner has no weapon, somebody shoots him : if he makes a full dodge, it will take his next action.
Joe runner has a gun, somebody shoots him : if he makes a full dodge, it will take his nex action.
Joe runner has a gun and a knife, somebody shoots him : now Joe runner can make a full dodge without spending any action.
Joe runner has two guns, somebody shoots him : still Joe runner can make a full dodge without spending any action.
Now find the logic.
Why having his two hands full makes Joe a better dodger ? he uses the weapon in his second hand to deflect bullets ? assuming he can without seeing his weapon breaks or explode, which I do not think because it means he's good enough to have perception in real time of the bullet's way through space, then why can't he do this with only one weapon in his second hand ? and then why couldn't he do this with a weapon in his good hand ? or better, with bare hands ? after all, a cyberlimb is quite as hard than a gun, so if he can do this with a gun, he must be able to do this with his cyberlimb, which can be as resistant, and on which he has even better control. Now, Joe runner with a cyberlimb can full dodge ranged attacks, deflecting bullets with bare hands, and it's only" logic" and "rule interpretation". Where do you think it will end ?

I don't really see how it's totally unbalancing, either. Unless you also buy Ambidexterity or Off-Hand Training, there's a -2 penalty to the Full Defense (or the attack, if you prefer), and you'll often have another -3 penalty for melee defender versus ranged attack. You need Dodge 5 just to break even with a gunman's normal defense. Yes, it sounds awesome if you describe it as "Full Defense all the time!" but it really isn't much of an advantage, compared to what you'd get by using a gun from across the room.

It's unbalanced because you don't have to take any action, and you just always get reaction + dodge against a ranged attack instead of reaction. The opponents roll agility + fire arme, but range fight modifier are mainly negative for the one who attacks.
You can check it, you gain quickly much more negative modifiers on a ranged attack than in melee.

About melee and ranged fight compared powers and handicaps, there's a recent thread on martial arts which shows what can be done with the good options in melee. It's … interesting  

[Bradd]

@anotherJack: Two Weapon Style only works with two melee weapons (Reach 0-1), and only if you attack with one of them. You can't do it with a gun, and you can't do anything besides a melee attack and Full Defense. That is definitely not free Full Defense all the time: It doesn't work with firearms, it doesn't work with magic, it doesn't work with hacking, etc. It's is very similar to the way Quickdraw works: You only get to draw the weapon for free if you're also attacking with it.

You can do it with a gun and the martial art Firefight. And you can use a gun as improvised melee weapon.

I still don't understand what you mean by this. You only get Full Defense if you attack with a melee weapon (a complex action). You cannot use Two Weapon Style if you fire a gun. If you're not firing a gun, what is the point of Firefight?

You can use a weapon in defense without necessarily using the weapon skill dice. That happens all the time with normal melee defense, if you choose (Reaction + Dodge) or (Reaction + Unarmed Combat) instead of (Reaction + weapon). Therefore, I don't agree with the insistence that Two Weapon Style only works for parrying.

Then, if you don't have to use the weapon, you don't need to use it against ranged attacks, so you don't need an second weapon against ranged attacks to use the full dodge for free.

That doesn't follow. You do use the second weapon, it just isn't reflected directly in the dice pool. Just like you still use your sword when you roll (Reaction + Dodge) in a normal defense, even though you don't roll Blades.

And even if you do need, imagine this :
Joe runner has no weapon, somebody shoots him : if he makes a full dodge, it will take his next action.
Joe runner has a gun, somebody shoots him : if he makes a full dodge, it will take his nex action.
Joe runner has a gun and a knife, somebody shoots him : now Joe runner can make a full dodge without spending any action.
Joe runner has two guns, somebody shoots him : still Joe runner can make a full dodge without spending any action.

There's the problem, that last claim is incorrect. To use Two Weapon Style, you must make a melee attack, which is a complex action. And he's making a melee attack with a gun, which is probably not a great idea.
 

Now find the logic.
Why having his two hands full makes Joe a better dodger ? he uses the weapon in his second hand to deflect bullets ?

It doesn't make him a better dodger. Two-weapon fighting makes you a better attacker. Note that if you use both melee weapons to attack, your opponent gets -1 defense against the first and -2 against the second. This maneuver just lets you shift that advantage to your own defense instead. By overwhelming the guy you attack, you can focus more on defending against him and everyone else.

It's unbalanced because you don't have to take any action, and you just always get reaction + dodge against a ranged attack instead of reaction. The opponents roll agility + fire arme, but range fight modifier are mainly negative for the one who attacks.
You can check it, you gain quickly much more negative modifiers on a ranged attack than in melee.

Please note that Two Weapon Style requires a complex action, just as Quickdraw requires a simple action. You do not get the Full Defense free and clear. For example, you do not get Full Defense if you use two simple actions to draw your two weapons. You do not get it if you're just walking around. You do not get it if you cast a spell. You only get it when you make a melee attack with two melee weapons.

And I don't agree that something is unbalanced just because it requires no action. It's only balanced or not in context with other, similar things. In this case, the similar things are gunbunny defenses (which are generally better) and two-weapon attack bonuses (which are about +3 net dice). Compared to those things, is this worth 7-9bp?

[anotherJack]

Okay, I think I see why you didn't find it unbalanced as I do. You think you have to make a melee attack to gain the free use of full defense. But when I read and re-read the text, I don't find anything that says the character has to make an attack.
The text :

The character may choose to apply the Full Defense option using only one of these weapons, attacking with the other weapon as normal (and without sacrificing an action)

As I understand it, it says the character uses one of his weapons in full defense, and can attack as normal with the other, not that he must attack to gain the free full dodge. But I'm french, I may not understand english subtleties as you do, so I may doubt.
Now, some points :
- a character can attack in melee with a gun, since it's an improvised melee weapon. He uses his clubs skill.
- even if he had to attack to get the free full defense, which I don't think, let's use the same way of thinking you used, let's extend it to ranged attacks : nothing says the character has to make a melee attack. Since they are melee improvised weapon, since they are used in melee by the firefight martial art, a character wielding two guns fits the conditions for two melee style. And since nothing is said about the attack type, he can simply shoot with a gun to gain the free full defense. It's a melee weapon, it's an attack, it's okay with the rules.
- But imho, if adepts need to develop a special power in order to have the ability to catch projectiles - and slow ones, not bullets - a mundane really can't just use a basic maneuver to deflect bullets with his weapon.

To resume : if the character really needs an attack to gain his free full defense, I find it less unbalanced, but
- I don't see where it's written.
- I still don't agree about extending it to ranged attacks, but if you apply it, by the rules, you must extend it too to the attack type, and then a shooter with two guns gets full defense for free, since a) they're valid melee weapon, and b) there's no more specification about the attack type than about the fact that the full defense applies or not to ranged attacks. There's no reason you extend the interpretation of a vague word to ranged attack and you don't do the same for another vague word.
- I'd say the free full defense does not need really the character to attack, but it applies only to full defense against melee attacks.

And I don't agree that something is unbalanced just because it requires no action. It's only balanced or not in context with other, similar things. In this case, the similar things are gunbunny defenses (which are generally better) and two-weapon attack bonuses (which are about +3 net dice). Compared to those things, is this worth 7-9bp?

Is it worth 7BP ?
If this is not a mistake, that you can have free defense against ranged attacks while wielding two weapons, and the devs say so, do you find that a free bonus of 7 dices (5 in dodge, spec. ranged attacks) on all my defense test are worth 7BP or not, knowing that increasing the reaction of one point costs 10 BP ? I'd say yess, totally. And I want to rebuild my characters.

[Bradd]

I'm certain that the attack is an integral part of the maneuver. Hm, how to explain this? The "attacking with the other weapon as normal" is a participial phrase that modifies the subject of the sentence, "character." It's independent of the rest of the sentence, which is why it's set off with a comma. Yes, this could be phrased better, and I can see how it'd be murky for a non-native speaker!

So yes, you do need to attack with one of the melee weapons, and you cannot make a ranged attack with a melee weapon. Yes, a gun is both ranged and (improvised) melee, but in context it must be used as a melee weapon, and that means a melee attack. This one isn't a subtlety of English, but rather a convention of RPGs, and I'd be very surprised if it weren't true here.

As for defending against ranged attacks, I thought of a clever argument in favor of that: A character can definitely use a weapon in Full Dodge, using Reaction + Dodge + weapon skill. But if you're actively dodging in melee, you're surely harder to hit at range too!

[anotherJack]

I have to trust you for the meaning, so I do.

But when it comes to RPG conventions, there's a convention in the shadowrun universe which is a melee weapon can't help against ranged attacks, or it already would with only one melee weapon, and it does not. There's no modifier between a character making a full dodge against a ranged attack unarmed and a character making a full dodge against a ranged attack wielding a melee weapon. Were we in Feng shui universe, I'd probably agree you can deflect bullets with your blade, but we're not. The only way to make somethin approaching is to be an adept with the right power, and it does not work on bullets, only on slow projectiles. The rule says the character use Full defense using one of these weapons, attacking with the other, so, I trust you the character must make an attack, but then, you have two choices :

- or you apply "RPG convention", and then, full defense using one of these weapon does not apply to ranged attacks, since melee weapon does not help against ranged attacks.
- or you apply RAW, exploiting the lack of precision to extend the word "full defense" to ranged attacks, and then you must do the same about the word "attack", extended to ranged attack, allowing to benefit the free full defense when using two guns.

But if on one hand you apply RAW, screwing the RPG convention, and on the other hand you apply the RPG's convention, screwing RAW, there's something very wrong.

And about using weapon in full dodge, yes you can, but the [reaction + dodge + weapon skill] full dodge definitely only works against melee attacks, as it is written.

[Bradd]

Melee weapon skill does not apply to ranged weapon attacks, but Full Dodge certainly does. I don't agree that the "RPG convention" applies there. You cannot fire a gun as a melee weapon, but you can certainly dodge ranged attacks while parrying with a sword. The sword doesn't help, but you can do it just the same.

[anotherJack]

Then there is something very wrong. You can't just apply RPG convention in one case to justify your interpretation, and ignore it when you want. There are 3 types of full dodges, ranged full dodge, which doesn't use a melee weapon, and two melee full dodges, of which one only uses a melee weapon. The rule says you use Full dodge using one of the two melee weapons, so it's the third Full dodge type. A melee weapon can't help against ranged attacks, you can't use these weapon to full dodge the ranged attack, so the rule does not apply to ranged attacks, you can't take the benefit of it, so, you have two tactical choices :

- Or you take the free full defense, then you must make an attack as you told me, and you can use the third full dodge type by using melee weapon, if it applies to the attack type, and it does not apply to ranged attacks, against ranged attacks your only option is the classic [reaction] test,
- Or you take the classic full defense, and then, yes, as you said, you can both full parry/dodge melee attacks and full dodge ranged attacks, any of the three types you want, but it isn't free, it costs a complex action.

But you can't have, in french we say "le beurre et l'argent du beurre", it means all advantages without any disavantadge.