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[6e] Edge 6-7

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ammulder

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« on: <05-21-21/2002:59> »
I've seen it argued that there's little point to have an edge higher than 5, because then you stand to lose the first one or two edge you otherwise would have gained, if they would put you over the limit of 7.

It just occurred to me that one of the big advantages of such a high edge is when you use the 4-point "add edge to pool and 6s explode" option.  My reading is that you add your Edge attribute to the pool, not your current Edge.  That is, if you have a 10-die pool and an Edge attribute of 4 and currently 7 edge, you could take that action to give yourself a 14-die pool with exploding 6s, reducing your current edge to 3.  On the other hand, if you had an Edge attribute of 7 and currently 4 edge, you could use your remaining edge to make the same 10-die pool into 17 dice with exploding 6s.  That seems like a notable advantage for a high edge attribute -- that is, if you use that Edge option.

Do you all see it at your tables?  So far in our first 6e session, players tended to want to see the roll and reroll failures rather than "pre-edge" for the exploding 6s.  Personally I feel like I'd go the other way and take the bigger pool with exploding dice.  Hmm.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <05-21-21/2110:47> »
Quote from: 4-Edge Boosts
Add Edge to your dice pool: Add your Edge
as a dice pool bonus to your roll, and make
6s explode. “Exploding” means that 6s count
as a hit and can be rerolled in an attempt to
get an additional hit. If another hit is scored,
tack it on; if another 6 is rolled, tack on a hit
and roll it again. Keep the hits coming! If a 1
is rolled after a 6, it does not count toward
your total for calculating glitches.

You add your Edge = You add your Edge attribute.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

ammulder

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« Reply #2 on: <05-21-21/2142:48> »
OK, so my reading is correct.  Then the question is, do you see people use this edge option?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <05-21-21/2222:24> »
OK, so my reading is correct.  Then the question is, do you see people use this edge option?

I think it's only really attractive to people who DO have high Edge attributes.  If you have a low Edge, what you're mainly buying is the Rule of 6 for your roll... which works best with big dice pools so you maximize the odds of getting numerous Sixes.  But the opportunity cost hurts more than the meta-currency cost... if you HAVE a big dice pool and you're willing to spend 4 meta-currency, the opportunity cost of edge boosts means you can only do the pre-roll modification OR the post-roll modification.  And when you have a big dice pool, rerolling failures is a much more reliable benefit than hoping for a lucky streak of 6s... you need the rule of six AND a big dice pool bonus on top of it to even make it a balanced comparison.  What's even worse, waiting to spend on rerolls means you don't have to commit to spending the edge boost until after you see the roll- maybe your dice pool will give you all the hits you needed even without an edge boost!

another factor:  I think 6e players who are used to 5e (or even prefer 5e, and are only playing 6e reluctantly) often view the 4 edge cost as a too-painful price to pay for what used to cost 1 edge in 5e.  Then again, this is ALSO true for the "reroll all failures" edge boost, which also used to only cost 1 edge in 5e.

Of course, if you have a low dice pool and high edge, THAT's the prime time to shine with the pre-roll edge boost.  Again, doing this in 5e used to only cost 1 edge, and so was pretty viable to rely on rather than actually investing in big dice pools.  So viable in fact, that the mechanic spawned a meta-archetype: The Edgelord!  Since that edge cost is now 4, you can't just "edgelord" every important roll as it comes up... which is IMO a pretty reasonable nerf, but those who prefer 5e might see the end of Edgelords as a bad thing.
« Last Edit: <05-21-21/2230:28> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <05-22-21/0203:55> »
If you have a strong edge attribute (but perhaps weaker dice pool) then typically "Add Edge to your dice pool (and make 6's explode)" is mechanically better. Note that this Edge Boost must be taken before you roll your dice!


If you have a large dice pool (but weaker edge attribute) then typically "Reroll all failed" dice is mechanically better. Note that this Edge Boost can be taken after you roll your dice and already know how many failed dice you have!


If you didn't have so many failed dice but you still failed your test then the Edge Boost "Reroll one die (for your opponent)" (which you can take more than once) is a really strong option. Each opposed hit you choose to reroll on average means another 2/3 hits for you. Note that mechanically speaking taking the Boost 4 times to reroll 4 hits from your opponent (4 Edge Points - same cost as rerolling all failed dice) is basically the same as getting 8/3 hits which is the same 'value' you would get by rerolling 8 failed dice of your own (so if you have less than 8 failed dice to reroll then rerolling hits for the opponent is typically the better option). Just like the reroll all dice Edge Boost, this Edge boost can be taken after you roll you and your opponent rolled your dice and you already know how many net hits you have!


Edit:

The 1 Edge Point Edge Boost "Add 3 to your Initiative Score" is an Edge Boost that you can take even before combat start (but after everyone rolled initiative so you know how many instances of the Edge Boost you should take) to change the acting order (in case you have an Edge Attribute and current Edge Point pool of 6 or 7 as the combat encounter starts and you risk gaining more).

The 2 Edge point Edge Boost "Give ally 1 Edge" is an Edge Boost that you can take at any time. Which mean that you can typically shift over some Edge Points to a teammate rather than running into Edge overflow (in case you happen to get 6-7 Edge Points and risk gaining more).

There are a few more options here.


Max Edge Attribute is typically 6 while maximum Edge Points you can store is 7.
Human Edge Attribute is 7 but they can still only store 7 Edge Points. I think this is flawed.
Proposed House Rule (from the sticky house rule thread)
Humans and Edge
...you can save Edge across multiple combat rounds to build up a maximum of 7 Edge points (or 8 for Humans) for that big play!
« Last Edit: <05-22-21/0218:35> by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: <05-22-21/0605:05> »
Math says the break-even point rule-of-thumb is 2.5: If your Edge Attribute times 2.5 exceeds your pool, Pre-Edge is better.

And yeah, Edge 6-7 are a bit of a trap imo. It's why I suggest an in-encounter cap of 9.
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Smogg

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« Reply #6 on: <07-13-21/0449:48> »
Hmm, I feel at the table, an edge of 6 or 7 still comes into full use. Sure, this character might not gain two edge when he takes his action, but usually he will gain one or two edge later in the combat round if attacked, provided he spent some on in his own action. Starting at 7 in practice just delay when in the first combat round you gain some edge.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <07-13-21/0919:21> »
Yeah but then what's the point, if you could have gained and spent if you had 5? It only matters if you enter a fight without being able to get edge initially, that seems too rare a case to be useful to me.
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Smogg

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« Reply #8 on: <07-14-21/0526:59> »
Well steet sam goes into combat with 7 edge.
Round 1 (7 edge)
He spend 4 edge on anticipation or on adding edge to pool and exploding dice on his attack!
Gain two edge while defending against enemies.

Round 2 (5 edge)
Now entering round 2 with 5 edge. Which was the reccomended edge to start combat with.

If you only had 5 edge to begin with, you would enter round two with 3 edge in this scenario.

So the point is that having 7 edge is not a waste of edge and further you can enjoy more dice when adding edge to dice pool.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: <07-14-21/1050:41> »
That's assuming you get the edge defending, though. It means you suddenly MUST get attacked to generate all your edge. So I still believe it's not worth it in most cases, because usually you're just restricting yourself and missing out on edge.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #10 on: <07-18-21/2336:19> »
7 Edge isn't mathematically optimal because humans are either wasting points or short points on Magic because of how the Priority table is set up. 

6 Edge you don't wind up with very often either.  A Mundane would need 5 Adjustment points, which isn't an option on the Priority table.  An Awakened character would probably want 10 (or more) Adjustment Points, so you'd need to be non-human and put in a B to Metatype. 

5 Edge will happen to a lot of Mundane characters, especially Humans.  E Magic ('cause Mundane) and D Metatype for 4 Adjustment points...just going to work out that way a lot.

If you could get a 6 or 7 Edge from the Priority table naturally, I'd agree with Smogg.  7 Edge on a combat character gets lulzy.  But in practice, a 6 or 7 Edge is a significant build goal that will require some (IMO anyway) potentially sub-optimal choices.

Mind you I totally have a theory crafted, Way of the Burnout, Stolen Goods, Physical Adept Gunslinger that does a 4 Edge Boost (Anticipate or Add Edge), for 3 consecutive Major actions, skips a beat, and then has a fourth 4 Edge Boost ready to go on Turn 3 if needed.  But it gives up either Skills or Resources for that trick compared to the same build with 5 Edge, that (when it all clicks) still gets 3 out of 4 Major actions on the first two turns with a 4 Edge Boost.  And seriously, if that doesn't clear the map, you're probably doomed anyway. 

So 6 or 7 Edge isn't, per se, inefficient.  However, the way the Priority table actually falls, makes it something of a compromise for many builds.  Awakened Metahumans with an E resources are the primary exception I can see. 

MercilessMing

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« Reply #11 on: <07-19-21/1054:50> »
Quote
A Mundane would need 5 Adjustment points, which isn't an option on the Priority table
A human mundane would need 5, but C meta is a common enough selection for meta mundanes if they're going A resources or just want the max attributes possible. 

From my 2 yrs experience playing and GM'ing 6e so far, I wouldn't call 6-7 edge a poor choice and I don't think a wasted point of edge here or there makes it suboptimal at all.  The person that does this, primarily, wants big impactful Edge Boosts.  Either they're a creative player who wants to take advantage of the narrative special effect 5-pt action, or they want to use the 4-pt Add Edge to Dice Pool action to make huge amazing rolls as often as possible. 

There are too many factors at play to call this a suboptimal choice, and anyway the whole argument about wasted Edge points is moot if the team has an M-Toc.

Quote from: Firing Squad pg. 90
one of its primary functions is more abstract in nature: the ability for PCs to use the M-TOC in combat situations to collect Edge above and beyond their limits, store that Edge, and share it among those linked into the network. The number of Edge points that can be stored is equal to the M-TOC’s device rating. This Edge can be stored when a player finds a situation where they earn more Edge than they can keep per the rules. Players can transfer any personal or stored Edge through the M-TOC system via a minor action.
And that's 3 edge for Mk 1, 5 for Mk 2, and 7 for Mk 3.
« Last Edit: <07-19-21/1103:08> by MercilessMing »

Hobbes

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« Reply #12 on: <07-19-21/1948:48> »

A human mundane would need 5, but C meta is a common enough selection for meta mundanes if they're going A resources or just want the max attributes possible. 


A mundane Meta-human?  Crazy talk.  : )

cantrip

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« Reply #13 on: <07-21-21/1045:39> »

A human mundane would need 5, but C meta is a common enough selection for meta mundanes if they're going A resources or just want the max attributes possible. 


A mundane Meta-human?  Crazy talk.  : )

LOL