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Adept Elemental Missile & INW

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Sir Ludwig

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« on: <03-25-21/2128:15> »
Forum Minds,

I am running a game this weekend (Copperhead Road).  I have an adept with Elemental Missile (SW p79).  In short,  adds an elemental damage type to attack.  She has it for throwing knifes 2P. The wording that created the question (for me) was "infuse a ranged attack with an elemental "damage" type.

There will be spirit that are attacking/being attacked.  So Immunity to Normal Weapons (INW) (SR p225)

Assume damage does not break the Immunity threshold. 

What happens: 
1.) Spirts take full damage from the knife and elemental damage (due to Elemental damage)
2.) Spirt only takes the elemental damage/effect (knife is not magical attack, only elemental (chilled, lighting, exc from SR p109)
3.) Spirt takes no damage.

I was originally in the #2 camp, but like I said the "damage" wording has me doubting myself.

Thanks
SL
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <03-26-21/0128:21> »
I'm in the #1 camp.

Reasoning:

1) ItNW is OP, and the more ways it can be bypassed the better.

2) I rationalize that the Elemental Missile power is magically enhancing the weapon, rather than adding a magical elemental effect to a weapon that remains otherwise unenhanced by magic

3) the ItNW power mentions
Quote
This applies to
all attacks that are not magical in nature; weapon
foci, spells, and adept or critter powers function
normally.

3a) "Not magical in nature" says to me, in a pedantic reading, that in order for ItNW to protect you the attack has to have no magic involved at all.  Add any magic to the attack and the deal is off.  Make your throwing knife burst into flames via magic, and you no longer have a circumstance where no magic is involved at all.
3b) Adept powers are given an explicit exemption to the effect of ItNW.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #2 on: <03-26-21/0811:04> »
I go #1 ... same reasons as SSDR
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #3 on: <03-26-21/1348:15> »
SSDR and Banshee,

That was the way I was leaning now as well.

Thanks,
SL
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Chopper

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« Reply #4 on: <04-03-21/0056:39> »
I lean towards SSDR #3 reasoning.

While I think Immunity to Normal Weapons is powerful, I don't think it is over powered. It just takes heavy weapons to put down large spirits. And MGL-12 properly employed or Machine Gun Fire properly employed can deal with most magical threats (there is however, collateral damage with the first, and heat with the second).

I think Spirits appear overpowered because players have spent time focusing on magic, but not on coordinated fire tactics, largely because most players aren't good at teamwork (or don't want to be). The reality in combat is that lone wolves that try to go it alone usually die. GMs rarely employ fire team tactics against the Spirits or the Troll Tank, but they should.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly think spirits are powerful (cheap, flexiable), and there should be balance. Reinforcing reasoning #3, I don't think physical adepts are a key part of that balance.

Observation: Elemental Missile + return of item attunement is a large shift to physical adept riggers being back as the apex predators. Magical (Elemental Missile) Heavy Machine Gun burst (8P) - Logic 6(8) + Engineering (Gunnery) 6(8) Attuned Vehicle Initiate Grade 2 = 18 dice easy, after a few runs. A real attack helicopter crew is a match for several spirits.

It is major shift from previous additions, but not radically changing SR Missions play. Will increase players choosing adepts. I would guess by 1 per table (6-7 person team) at a Convention.

Clarity on elemental missile and grenade launchers visa gunnery should be made quickly.

Cheers,
Choppers


Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <04-03-21/0324:13> »
Not very easy to argue RAW in SR6. From a plausible rules as intended (but mostly from a "cool factor") I personally lean towards #1 where the previously mundane attack becomes magic in nature and can bypass immunity to normal weapons. And for the same reasons I also choose to read it as it is only applicable to ranged attacked performed with the Athletics skill and that you cannot use it with ranged attacks performed with Gunnery or Firearms.


Chopper

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« Reply #6 on: <04-03-21/1108:12> »
My post my have been confusing. I am also in the camp that the Spirits would take full damage with ItNW bypassed.

I agree with:
1.) Spirts take full damage from the knife and elemental damage (due to Elemental damage)

based mostly on SSDRs #3 break down.
3) the ItNW power mentions
Quote
This applies to
all attacks that are not magical in nature; weapon
foci, spells, and adept or critter powers function
normally.

3a) "Not magical in nature" says to me, in a pedantic reading, that in order for ItNW to protect you the attack has to have no magic involved at all.  Add any magic to the attack and the deal is off.  Make your throwing knife burst into flames via magic, and you no longer have a circumstance where no magic is involved at all.
3b) Adept powers are given an explicit exemption to the effect of ItNW.

Cheers,
Chopper

Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #7 on: <04-03-21/1126:12> »
All,

Thanks for the feedback and input.  I ran it where the knifes did full damage and personally I think it played well. 

Regards,
SL
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Typhus

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« Reply #8 on: <04-13-21/1718:07> »
#1 feels right to me too.  I feel like the word "infused" is the key to justifying the weapon itself as now being magical.  The word alone implies investing magic in an object, therefore its now a magic weapon with a duration of "1 Attack".  This aligns with the alchemy terminology "infusion", which uses a longer ritual to create a magical item with a correspondingly longer duration. In essence, the adept is grabbing a little bit of the same type of mojo that an enchanter does.  I think it's also the easiest ruling for players to grab.