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Ares Viper Slivergun overhaul?

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Critias

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« Reply #30 on: <03-27-11/0544:05> »
The Slivergun has been wrong since 2nd edition. At least since 3rd edition.
In 1st Edition it was a LIGHT Pistol, NOT a Heavy Pistol.
Also, this weapon is based on Molly Millions Needler from William Gibsons Neuromancer.
Well, lots of things changed from 1st-2nd (or from 2nd-3rd, or 3rd-4th).  That doesn't mean it's been wrong ever since, just that it's changed.

And even in 1st it was pretty messed up.  They told us it was a Light pistol in its fluff, but it was listed as a Heavy on the actual weapons chart, and it specifically stated it used the Heavy ranges.  It was just kind of...weird. 
« Last Edit: <03-27-11/0555:09> by Critias »

CanRay

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« Reply #31 on: <03-27-11/1148:25> »
Lots of weird firearms IRL.  In particular I'm thinking of RL Caseless firearms and Gyrojet weapons.
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savaze

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« Reply #32 on: <03-27-11/1615:36> »
The Slivergun has been wrong since 2nd edition. At least since 3rd edition.
In 1st Edition it was a LIGHT Pistol, NOT a Heavy Pistol.
Also, this weapon is based on Molly Millions Needler from William Gibsons Neuromancer.
Well, lots of things changed from 1st-2nd (or from 2nd-3rd, or 3rd-4th).  That doesn't mean it's been wrong ever since, just that it's changed.

And even in 1st it was pretty messed up.  They told us it was a Light pistol in its fluff, but it was listed as a Heavy on the actual weapons chart, and it specifically stated it used the Heavy ranges.  It was just kind of...weird.
Maybe it's just a heavy pistol with a compact frame, for greater concealability...

Critias

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« Reply #33 on: <03-27-11/1648:32> »
The Slivergun has been wrong since 2nd edition. At least since 3rd edition.
In 1st Edition it was a LIGHT Pistol, NOT a Heavy Pistol.
Also, this weapon is based on Molly Millions Needler from William Gibsons Neuromancer.
Well, lots of things changed from 1st-2nd (or from 2nd-3rd, or 3rd-4th).  That doesn't mean it's been wrong ever since, just that it's changed.

And even in 1st it was pretty messed up.  They told us it was a Light pistol in its fluff, but it was listed as a Heavy on the actual weapons chart, and it specifically stated it used the Heavy ranges.  It was just kind of...weird.
Maybe it's just a heavy pistol with a compact frame, for greater concealability...
In 1st, each gun had an individual concealability rating.  There were tendencies for Lights to be smaller than Heavies, and that sort of thing...but it wasn't a blanket rule.  The Viper was just weird.  They called it a Light, but it was a Light that had the range and damage of a Heavy, and was listed as a Heavy on the chart of guns, and a Light that had the same concealability as a Browning Heavy.

It was just...yeah.  Weird.  SR1 was basically just the guy saying "It's a Light Pistol, guys!  Honest!"  So I didn't really mind when in later editions they just went ahead and called it a Heavy Pistol.

savaze

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« Reply #34 on: <03-27-11/1703:14> »
In 1st, each gun had an individual concealability rating.  There were tendencies for Lights to be smaller than Heavies, and that sort of thing...but it wasn't a blanket rule.  The Viper was just weird.  They called it a Light, but it was a Light that had the range and damage of a Heavy, and was listed as a Heavy on the chart of guns, and a Light that had the same concealability as a Browning Heavy.

It was just...yeah.  Weird.  SR1 was basically just the guy saying "It's a Light Pistol, guys!  Honest!"  So I didn't really mind when in later editions they just went ahead and called it a Heavy Pistol.
I know, I'm just trying to make it work.  They kept that light pistol stuff in the fluff text up through 2e, and the concealabilty was the same as a HP in 1e, but on par with a LP in both 2e & 3e (though the gap was narrowed for pistol conceals).

CanRay

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« Reply #35 on: <03-27-11/1937:34> »
I really wish they had kept the individual concealability...   :'(

But I'm a gun nut and all that, so...
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savaze

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« Reply #36 on: <03-27-11/2010:27> »
I concur!  I wish there were books with 'optional' complicated rule sets to add onto the basic set, but that's me...

Phylos Fett

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« Reply #37 on: <09-18-11/0506:23> »
I remember "errata"-ing the Ares Viper Slivergun in every edition since they stuffed the conversion from SR1 to SR2. In SR4 I changed it to have the same stats as written, except that it does 6P (f).

Mäx

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« Reply #38 on: <09-18-11/0617:28> »
I remember "errata"-ing the Ares Viper Slivergun in every edition since they stuffed the conversion from SR1 to SR2. In SR4 I changed it to have the same stats as written, except that it does 6P (f).
Has any player ever used one in your SR4?
Because i see absolutely no reason to ever buy one with that damage code.
It's not exactly a super pistol as written, but that change makes it totally useless.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Phylos Fett

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« Reply #39 on: <09-18-11/0658:29> »
Has any player ever used one in your SR4?
Because i see absolutely no reason to ever buy one with that damage code.
It's not exactly a super pistol as written, but that change makes it totally useless.

I makes it better than any other Light Pistol capable of Burst-Fire or Machine Pistol, because it uses the Heavy Pistol ranges, has a better Availability, and a better price point. Any of my players that wants a LP or a MP on the cheap gets one.

Mäx

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« Reply #40 on: <09-18-11/0720:50> »
I makes it better than any other Light Pistol capable of Burst-Fire or Machine Pistol, because it uses the Heavy Pistol ranges, has a better Availability, and a better price point. Any of my players that wants a LP or a MP on the cheap gets one.
I guess they're heavy duty penny pincher's ;D
Because if your filling to spend a little more money, pretty much any of the Machine Pistols is much better and not limited to using fletchette ammo, to say nothing about using Automatic skill to fire(witch is usually a very good think)
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Phylos Fett

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« Reply #41 on: <09-18-11/0732:43> »
I guess they're heavy duty penny pincher's ;D
Because if your filling to spend a little more money, pretty much any of the Machine Pistols is much better and not limited to using fletchette ammo, to say nothing about using Automatic skill to fire(witch is usually a very good think)

Well, outside of low-powered gang-level style games (which I've had a couple), none of my players rarely bother with anything other than Heavy Pistols as far as pistols go. But, when you're playing the former style games...

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #42 on: <09-18-11/0929:28> »
Don't they have tungston flechete in War! that has better armor defeating traits? Wish I had my books :-\
Yeah, and they use Impact armor, not Ballistic -- but they're also availability 18, and cost 16 nuyen a round. 

If it matters, even regular flechette rounds go against Impact armor (SR4A, 323).
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
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Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #43 on: <09-18-11/0938:26> »
I remember "errata"-ing the Ares Viper Slivergun in every edition since they stuffed the conversion from SR1 to SR2. In SR4 I changed it to have the same stats as written, except that it does 6P (f).
Has any player ever used one in your SR4?
Because i see absolutely no reason to ever buy one with that damage code.
It's not exactly a super pistol as written, but that change makes it totally useless.

I think I had a character use one back in SR2 days, but I've never seen anyone use one since then.  If it did 8P, it would be overpowered (though that's what the Slivergun would do with AP Flechette from War!), but that (f) makes a huge difference.  On the other hand, +5 AP gives an average of just under +2 hits on damage resistance, so the +5 AP doesn't quite compensate for the increased DV.  And since most targets (aside from the FFBA/PPP-layering runners) have lower Impact than Ballistic armor, the weapon is a good buy.  The main difference is that since it's flechette, you can't really change to a different ammo type except for AP Flechette.

As I think about it, I may have to try this gun. :)
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
Missions Freelancer (SRM 04-10 Romero & Juliette, SRM 05-01 Chasin' the Wind, SRM 06-06 Falling Angels, PM-02 A Holy Piece of Wetwork)

Mäx

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« Reply #44 on: <09-18-11/1728:30> »
I think I had a character use one back in SR2 days, but I've never seen anyone use one since then.  If it did 8P, it would be overpowered (though that's what the Slivergun would do with AP Flechette from War!), but that (f) makes a huge difference.  On the other hand, +5 AP gives an average of just under +2 hits on damage resistance, so the +5 AP doesn't quite compensate for the increased DV.  And since most targets (aside from the FFBA/PPP-layering runners) have lower Impact than Ballistic armor, the weapon is a good buy.  The main difference is that since it's flechette, you can't really change to a different ammo type except for AP Flechette.

As I think about it, I may have to try this gun. :)
Raw version is a solid piece of weaponry, my question was about his nerfed version that only does 6P(f) damage.
"An it harm none, do what you will"