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Switching from VR to AR

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Quintilium

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« on: <04-06-18/0653:31> »
I'm going nuts trying to find it, I know its gotta be somewhere in the book but I keep overlooking it.

If I am in VR I need to switch to AR before I jack out or else I suffer dumpshock, that I know.

I can find so much information about the matrix, AR, VR cold and hot, but I can not find out what I need to do to switch from VR to AR. If there is risk of dumpshock its gotta be an action or something, but I can't find it. It's like that one thing you are trying to find but cant no matter how much you look, you'll find the f*ckin holy grail before you find what you were looking.

So please can someone tell me what kind of action I need to take to switch from VR to AR and vice versa. (Also what page from the book its on, so I can permanently mark it.)

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #1 on: <04-06-18/0739:37> »
Take a look at p.243 core:
SWITCH INTERFACE MODE
(SIMPLE ACTION)
Marks Required: Owner
Test: none (Data Processing action)
You switch your perception from AR to VR or vice
versa. Switching to VR causes your body to go limp, so
don’t do it somewhere dangerous. If you switch from
VR to AR, you lose the bonus Initiative Dice from VR
(Changing Initiative, p. 160). If you’re link-locked (p.
229), you cannot switch interface modes.
You can only do this to yourself; you can’t switch oth-
er people’s interface mode.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Odsh

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« Reply #2 on: <01-12-21/1449:48> »
Again, sorry for necroing an old thread, but it contains exactly what I'm looking for.

The posts above concerne SR5 if I'm not mistaken.

Now, we still have the "switch interface mode" action in SR6, but strangely the whole part about changing initiative is missing and nowhere to be found in the CRB.

So, since I don't want to download my SR5 PDF to get a clue about the SR6 RAI, what exactly are we supposed to do in SR6 when switching from hot sim VR to AR for example?
We adjust our initiative by subtracting (Data Processing + 2d6) and then adding (Reaction)?
I suppose we also adjust the amount of remaining minor actions in the process?

Speaking of which, it's not clear to me which initiative types get bonus dice and additional minor actions from Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Boosters, Increase Reflexes and Improved Reflexes.

I assume that the standard "meat" initiative and AR initiative are one and the same. And thus, AR initiative benefits from all the above. Correct?
What about VR initiative and minor actions? If I remember the previous editions correctly, none of the above increased VR initiative. Is it still the case?
So, it is possible to get more actions in AR than in VR?
I saw Banshee mentioning that he intended for the Cyberjack to give bonus VR initiative dice & minor actions, but for some reason this was removed.

Assuming we apply Banshee's 6we Matrix FAQ:

Quote
The table on Page 177 is the correct table for Cyberjacks, not Page 284.
The Matrix Init Bonus for cyberjacks is the extra dice you get when in VR.

Deckers can indeed reach +5d6. I'm still not sure what would be the advantage versus someone hacking in AR with a maxed initiative-boosting implant, spell or adept power though? AR is much safer after all?

Am I correct that the Technomancer will never attain +5d6 initiative and that the best he can do is +4d6 when in hotsim VR and with the overclocking echo?

I'm slightly derailing the topic here, but what about astral initiative? Since Increase Reflexes is a physical spell, there is no way to benefit from it during astral projection I assume? Neither from the implants and adept power?
« Last Edit: <01-12-21/1616:02> by Odsh »
Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <01-12-21/1639:05> »
My recommendation for dealing with initiative when a character switches between VR and AR is to just reroll initiative.  Too many fiddly details would have to be factored in otherwise.  Edit: in light of seeing your question about Astral, I'd say the same would apply there.  You switch worlds?  You reroll init.  That's how I would do it.

Quote
it's not clear to me which initiative types get bonus dice and additional minor actions from Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Boosters, Increase Reflexes and Improved Reflexes.

VR ignores all of the above.  AR, which yes is basically "physical world mode", includes them all.  Yes, since there's technically no way to gain extra initiative dice in VR, it's possible for AR to go faster.  Hence the "writer's intent" for cyberjacks to be adding init dice to VR actions.

Quote
what about astral initiative? Since Increase Reflexes is a physical spell, there is no way to benefit from it during astral projection I assume? Neither from the implants and adept power?

that's a can of ugly.  6e did not define the barrier between astral and physical space very well at all.  It's completely unknowable whether a the Increase Reflexes spell goes with you when you project.  It's my opinion that it does not, however.  Reasoning:

1) It's a spell yes, but it's a physical spell.  Since only mana spells can target projecting characters, it stands to reason that only mana spells can affect the same.

2) Even if a physical spell could somehow affect a projecting target, the spell is still PHYSICAL.  It stays on your body rather than going with your aura.  Even if it could affect you, it still wouldn't.

3) It's my understanding that there is an unspoken assumption that "initiative" refers specifically to physical world (and AR, since that's where the matrix overlaps with it.  The analagous crossover space for Physical and Astral is being Dual Natured, and in that case you also use physical world initiative).  Initiative bonuses do not affect VR initiative unless they say they do, and therefore I also believe that initiative bonuses do not affect Astral Initiative unless they say they do.  The spell doesn't say it works while in astral space, ergo it does not.
« Last Edit: <01-12-21/1643:15> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Odsh

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« Reply #4 on: <01-12-21/1721:45> »
Thanks for your response Stainless Steel Devil Rat.

Even with Banshee's "non officially recognized, but intended" rule about the cyberjack giving bonus init dice in VR, it still bugs me that the fastest streetsam, adept or mage can be in AR as fast as the fastest decker in VR (and faster than the fastest Technomancer).

I think I'll personally houserule that minor matrix actions in AR cost double and that you can't exchange 4 minor actions for 1 major matrix action in AR (you would need 8 to be consistent with the double cost, which is unattainable).
Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <01-12-21/1754:52> »
what exactly are we supposed to do in SR6 when switching from hot sim VR to AR for example?
If you had +3D6 initiative in hot sim VR and only +1D6 initiative in AR you will immediately lose 2 minor actions.
And in the following combat turn you might act in a different order depending on your new initiative score.


I assume that the standard "meat" initiative and AR initiative are one and the same. And thus, AR initiative benefits from all the above. Correct?
Correct. Still the same as previous edition.


What about VR initiative and minor actions? If I remember the previous editions correctly, none of the above increased VR initiative. Is it still the case?
Yes. Still the same as previous edition.


So, it is possible to get more actions in AR than in VR?
Yes. Still the same as previous edition.


Deckers can indeed reach +5d6. I'm still not sure what would be the advantage versus someone hacking in AR with a maxed initiative-boosting implant, spell or adept power though? AR is much safer after all?
If you invested into +5D6 meat world initiative then you will not gain more actions by switching to VR.


I'm slightly derailing the topic here, but what about astral initiative? Since Increase Reflexes is a physical spell, there is no way to benefit from it during astral projection I assume? Neither from the implants and adept power?
Meatworld initiative (and physical attributes like reaction) is used during astral perception and AR.
Meatworld initiative (and physical attributes like reaction) is not used during astral projection and VR.


I think I'll personally houserule that minor matrix actions in AR cost double and that you can't exchange 4 minor actions for 1 major matrix action in AR (you would need 8 to be consistent with the double cost, which is unattainable).
You might want to test the rule a few sessions as it was originally intended before you start to house rule things.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <01-12-21/1851:13> »
I think I'll personally houserule that minor matrix actions in AR cost double and that you can't exchange 4 minor actions for 1 major matrix action in AR (you would need 8 to be consistent with the double cost, which is unattainable).
You might want to test the rule a few sessions as it was originally intended before you start to house rule things.

I concur with Xenon, here.

The matrix rules are finally doing a good job of having the decker go in with the team and integrating their actions with everyone else's.  It's a step backwards if you make the only viable way to hack is to go limp-noodle.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Odsh

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« Reply #7 on: <01-13-21/1355:18> »
Interesting, thanks for your answers.

I promised my players I would go easy on the houserules, so I really want to be convinced.

That being said, this action economy strangeness between AR and VR was already existing in SR5. And I played SR5 extensively and never liked that part.

The matrix rules are finally doing a good job of having the decker go in with the team and integrating their actions with everyone else's.  It's a step backwards if you make the only viable way to hack is to go limp-noodle.

Fair enough. Isn't that reserved to the decker though? I have trouble imagining a technomancer reaching a decent AR initiative without gimping his matrix prowess.

I see it like this: between a decker who hacks in AR, doesn't have to go "limp-noodle", can use his high AR initiative to be effective in the meat world too, doesn't risk biofeedback damage nor dying while link locked, and a decker in VR that has the same initiative, but none of these advantages... is there still a point in hacking in VR at all?
In practice I assume such an AR hacker would want to find the right balance between his Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Booster and his Cyberjack, if only to have a decent Firewall and Data Processing. Or maybe just go with a rating 1 Cyberjack and use a commlink, that have decent F/D ratings with Banshee's houserules. But let's imagine an experienced Decker who was earned enough nuyen over his career to max out both implants (quite expensive as you need better than standard grade ware). It's an extreme example, granted, but why would such a decker want to hack in VR, ever?
Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: <01-13-21/1406:17> »
I see it like this: between a decker who hacks in AR, doesn't have to go "limp-noodle", can use his high AR initiative to be effective in the meat world too, doesn't risk biofeedback damage nor dying while link locked, and a decker in VR that has the same initiative, but none of these advantages... is there still a point in hacking in VR at all?
In practice I assume such an AR hacker would want to find the right balance between his Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Booster and his Cyberjack, if only to have a decent Firewall and Data Processing. Or maybe just go with a rating 1 Cyberjack and use a commlink, that have decent F/D ratings with Banshee's houserules. But let's imagine an experienced Decker who was earned enough nuyen over his career to max out both implants (quite expensive as you need better than standard grade ware). It's an extreme example, granted, but why would such a decker want to hack in VR, ever?

Because of how Edge works.

Remember there's three legs to Edge generation:

AR vs DR (matrix AR vs matrix DR, in the case of hacking)
Bonus edge granted by gear/qualities/etc

but the big one is:

Circumstantial advantage

Ok, so you're in VR and your target is not?  That's an advantage.  9 times out of 10 that ought to qualify for the circumstantial edge.  You're in hot sim but the target is in cold sim?  You get the edge advantage, etc.

So, matrix devices and IC run on the equivalent of Cold Sim VR.  If you're in AR, you're potentially giving away edge virtually every hacking action you make while hacking locks/hosts/etc.  If you're drek hot and can afford to do it, great.  If it's not worth going limp-noodle, that's the price you pay.  If the matrix defenses are such that you can't afford to forfeit edge every action, then yes this is a challenge worthy of going limp and doing it in VR.
« Last Edit: <01-13-21/1416:25> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #9 on: <01-13-21/1435:31> »
Technomancers are in a really good spot in this edition.

Odsh

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« Reply #10 on: <01-13-21/1531:00> »
Ok, so you're in VR and your target is not?  That's an advantage.  9 times out of 10 that ought to qualify for the circumstantial edge.  You're in hot sim but the target is in cold sim?  You get the edge advantage, etc.

I see, thanks for the info.
Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?