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SR6 Weapons With Few Firing Modes and Attack Ratings

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cuidaBeja

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« on: <01-03-21/2107:58> »
I don't beef with attack ratings like . . . some factions on this forum do, but I've had a bit of an ongoing question regarding attack ratings on some guns.

It makes sense for attack ratings (and damage values) of weapons, say the Yamaha Raiden, to be for single shots, because if you want to fire a burst or shoot in full auto you can modify those attack ratings as desired, and everything in core has firing modes down to SA or SS, so that assumption holds up.

Firing Squad introduced weapons like the Ultimax 71, Izom Artemis, and the Ingram Knight series, which all fire only in burst and full auto. Are we supposed to assume that the DV and ARs listed are supposed to be for their minimum of burst fire or for the baseline of semi auto?

And then you have guns like Krime Katalogue's Krime Chatter and the Mad Momma from FS, which both only fire in Full Auto, and their lowest attack ratings would become zero or lower if we assume that they're listed as an unmodified SA attack rating . . .

Anyone have RAW or RAI to clarify this?

Another question is whether or not you can use a weapon in full auto to make a single attack with all of your dice against a single target or if you'd at minimum have to make two, half pool attacks.
Shadowrun may not be the dystopia we want but we should be careful that it's not the one we get . . .

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <01-03-21/2224:57> »
There isn't a formal FAQ available for publication yet, but it is the intent that all the statlines are for a basic, non-burst, SS attack.  Technically speaking, there is no gun that cannot make a SS attack, although it stands to reason that some machine guns should maybe be truly "FA only".

Even if that were the case, the statline is showing a "hypothetical" SS attack.  You always apply the burst modifications from that statline... it's not already baked in.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <01-03-21/2232:00> »
Another question is whether or not you can use a weapon in full auto to make a single attack with all of your dice against a single target or if you'd at minimum have to make two, half pool attacks.

By my reading:  FA only allows you to make a multiple attack, it doesn't force you to.  If you only want to shoot 1 target, then send 1 bullet downrange and it's in effect a SS shot (see my post above).

Note that FA allows you to attempt multiple attacks on the same target, which is an ability that the multiple attack action does not also allow.

Also note that Anticipation only refills dice pools on a per-target basis.  It doesn't say per attack.  So if you're using a FA weapon (and ONLY if you're using a FA weapon) you may make multiple attacks on one poor schlub.  But Anticipation won't refresh your split dice pools.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <01-04-21/0906:49> »
Technically speaking, there is no gun that cannot make a SS attack, although it stands to reason that some machine guns should maybe be truly "FA only".
SA means that you will double tap the trigger to quickly fire two bullets at the same target. One bullet each time you pulled the trigger. Even if this was never mentioned in the rules I agree that it still stand to reason that you can also choose to just pull the trigger once, to fire a single bullet (treating it as if you were using a SS firing mode with listed AR and DV).

BF means that your weapon will automatically fire 4 bullets each time you pull the trigger. Either against one target as a narrow burst or by spraying two targets next to each other as a slightly wider burst. It is not possible to just fire one single bullet in this firing mode (except perhaps if you only have one single bullet left in the magazin). If you wish to just fire a single bullet you typically switch to SA mode and just tap the trigger once. Even if you know something I don't, I would be very careful about telling people that it is allowed to fire BF mode weapons using SS rules.

FA means that your weapon will automatically fire bullets whenever the trigger is pressed. You typically use it to attack a slew of targets or even a single target with a series of small dice pools.

Depending on the specific weapon's rate of fire I guess it is debatable that you could also quickly tap the trigger in FA mode, hoping that only a single bullet will be fired but this is typically not something that is taught or practiced in reality. Instead, if you wish to just attack a single target with a single bullet you would typically switch to SA mode and just tape the trigger once. Weapons that doesn't even support SA or BF mode (like LMGs) are actually never supposed to be used for single shots to begin with (they are supposed to be used for suppressive fire together with a mix of tracer rounds).

Game mechanic wise (as written) you can still attack one target once with FA without splitting your pool (but it will still cost you 10 bullets and 6 AR). Unless you know something I don't, I would be careful to also telling people that it is allowed to fire FA mode weapons using SS rules.



Note that FA allows you to attempt multiple attacks on the same target, which is an ability that the multiple attack action does not also allow.
If you for example are wielding two weapons at the same time then you can also attack the same target twice. Once with each weapon (this after all the primary reason why you would want to dual wield to begin with).

SR6 p. 110 Off-hand Attacks
If you’re attacking with two hands, the attack from your primary hand can still gain and spend Edge; for other rules, see Multiple Attacks below.

SR6 p. 111 Multiple Attacks
This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target.
« Last Edit: <01-04-21/0908:20> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <01-04-21/1022:32> »
Allow me, if I may, to TL;DR the thread:

OP asked:
Quote
Are we supposed to assume that the DV and ARs listed are supposed to be for their minimum of burst fire or for the baseline of semi auto?

The short answer is:
The statlines do not have firing bursts modifications already baked in. 

The longer answer is:
The short answer must be correct, as if it were otherwise there'd be no way to discern which firing mode the stat line is supposed to reflect.  The only workable assumption is that the statline given is pre-modification.

The OP's other question about multiple attacks is unfortunately a gnarly ball of worms.  I'm of the opinion that an objectively correct answer CANNOT be given, due to conflicts between multiple attacks and firing burst rules.  My personal recommendation is to adopt the SRM stance on  how to reconcile them, and build answers for spinoff questions from that assumption.
« Last Edit: <01-04-21/1032:07> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

cuidaBeja

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« Reply #5 on: <01-04-21/1521:42> »
This is pretty much all answers that I expected here with one exception . . .


The longer answer is:
The short answer must be correct, as if it were otherwise there'd be no way to discern which firing mode the stat line is supposed to reflect.  The only workable assumption is that the statline given is pre-modification.


This is exactly what I expected for weapons with multiple firing modes, but it's less obvious with the Mad Mamma. The Mad Mamma is Full Auto only, so giving it an attack rating of 1 in close would mean that for any attack made in close combat, it has an attack rating of . . . -5?

I don't really need to make the Mad Mamma stronger, but I'd hesitate to say that it would be my choice when bug hunting. I just don't get why it would have an attack rating stuck at -5 instead of just a -/10 . . .

The Krime Chatter is really the reason why I brought this question, because it's very hood but man is it bad. I want to use it, but it doesn't fit the power level of my game (Two players but both prime runners) and I feel like 2k nuyen of modifications isn't in the spirit of hood-ness.

Shadowrun may not be the dystopia we want but we should be careful that it's not the one we get . . .

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <01-04-21/1537:53> »
Yeah, I assumed that OPs question was already answered...?



But to be crystal clear;

Quote
Are we supposed to assume that the DV and ARs listed are supposed to be for their minimum of burst fire or for the baseline of semi auto?
The statlines do not have firing bursts modifications already baked in. 
We both agree here.


The OP's other question about multiple attacks is unfortunately a gnarly ball of worms.
We both agree here.

But without going into details I think we also both agree that the shooter is allowed to attack once with a FA mode weapon (dividing his dice pool by 1).



The only thing I was debating here was if the shooter still also spend 10 bullets (and 6 AR) or if he in this special case get to spend just 1 bullet (and get no penalty to AR).

I am fine with both readings.

(at least as long as we don't also suggest that you are allowed to fire just 1 bullet with a weapon in BF mode).



I just don't get why it would have an attack rating stuck at -5 instead of just a -/10
In the first case you are allowed to use it at melee range (but because it is unwieldy you will probably be at a tactical disadvantage and should perhaps consider using another weapon).

In the second case you are unable to (ever) even attempt to fire the weapon at melee range (at all). No matter what.

Also consider shooters that might be using a Gyro mount + a Smartgun System + APDS ammo.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <01-04-21/1726:43> »
On the topic of AR dash vs AR -5:
Quote from: Attack Rating, pg 108
If a weapon does not have an Attack Rating
in a certain range category, it cannot be used
at that range.

So a dash is not at all the same thing as a 0, or even a negative number.

On the topic of a FA capable gun making a SS attack:
I reviewed the entry for the "Mad Mamma" (Firing Squad, pgs. 27-28) and don't see any reason the weapon is restricted solely to the FA firing mode.  Granted, it's not given an allowance for SA/BF, but my point is it's not at all demonstrated that an allowance is necessary for SS. Most guns are ineligible for a SS attack if you choose to read it as an explicit allowance for SS is required.  That... is surely not the intent.

So, yeah.  The Mad Mamma is in a weird spot if it can do FA and SS but nothing in between, but that's a corner case where I'm absolutely convinced statlines are both a) pre-firing mode modifications and b) any gun can make a SS attack, even if it doesn't say SS on the Mode.  Why the Mad Mamma can't do SA or at least BF is an oddity that I cannot explain, but who knows.  FS hasn't gotten an errata doc yet so maybe we can tackle that.

« Last Edit: <01-04-21/1750:38> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #8 on: <01-04-21/2008:52> »
My interpretation of the rules align with SSDR, but I typically seem to think like him/her for better or worse. 

SSDR,

Replied to a PM, never heard back.  Wanted to make sure you go it.   Just PM me, even if it's bugger off. :)

Apologies for hijacking thread.
SL
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