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[SR6] Skill learning time

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #15 on: <11-22-20/0540:50> »
I mean I ran a campaign that first was every 2~3 weeks, turning every month or worse when one player moved and we ended up having two Antwerp players, so in the end over 52 sessions, of which 32 were SR5, we averaged a bit over a month per session. I finished each run in 1 session, ended up giving an average of 6.5 karma per run based on the SR5 rewards. Adding nuyen->karma still kept them below 10 karma per month, which is about the point in SR6 where you'd be spending karma as fast as you're gaining it. So honestly, I don't think training times would have been a problem for us, nor were SR5 or are SR6 karma rewards.

But that's for a normal '1 run per month' campaign. If you're running anything else, then go ahead and do whatever you want, both training times and karma are explicitly guidelines. I ran a double-exp D&D 4e campaign from level 1 to level 10, because that was the speed I liked. I've played in short campaigns for Shadowrun where we spent everything as fast as we gained it, wasn't a problem there. If you want time to progress faster, go ahead and raise rewards in return. Want the players to go through tough runs? Go ahead and up the benefits. Playing a 30 Nights style campaign? Go ahead and toss out the training times. The system's not broken for the default style, but they acknowledge not everyone runs the same way, so feel free to modify using the baseline idea, so you have a rough idea to base it on rather than just random numbers.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #16 on: <11-24-20/1119:29> »
Why is one run per month "normal".  Do people just want to make the bills? On a meta level don't mundane players want to buy new cyber or upgrade existing cyber, its not nearly as cheap as it was in 4e. so unless each run a month is paying out massive amounts I feel this stagnates mundanes.  We are in more the weekly run camp. And we pay out more than seems the standard if missions etc is a guideline.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #17 on: <11-24-20/1251:00> »
Why is one run per month "normal".  Do people just want to make the bills? On a meta level don't mundane players want to buy new cyber or upgrade existing cyber, its not nearly as cheap as it was in 4e. so unless each run a month is paying out massive amounts I feel this stagnates mundanes.  We are in more the weekly run camp. And we pay out more than seems the standard if missions etc is a guideline.

It depends on the campaign assumption on how much laying low time is recommended/mandatory in between jobs. 

It won't do to do a job on tuesday, and then another job wednesday night.  The people your tuesday job wronged are still looking for who hit them.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #18 on: <11-24-20/1655:01> »
Why is one run per month "normal".  Do people just want to make the bills? On a meta level don't mundane players want to buy new cyber or upgrade existing cyber, its not nearly as cheap as it was in 4e. so unless each run a month is paying out massive amounts I feel this stagnates mundanes.  We are in more the weekly run camp. And we pay out more than seems the standard if missions etc is a guideline.

It depends on the campaign assumption on how much laying low time is recommended/mandatory in between jobs. 

It won't do to do a job on tuesday, and then another job wednesday night.  The people your tuesday job wronged are still looking for who hit them.

We've always run it as unless you do something crazy on the run, like kill their puppy they just write it off as cost of business. back to back days sounds a bit much, but one Tuesday, and then another one Sunday doesn't sound extreme to me.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #19 on: <11-24-20/1711:56> »
While there's often an aspect of "behave professionally, and you'll be treated professionally" that limits how much blowback shadowrunners face (when they conduct themselves as they "should")... some runs have more blowback than others.  If you extract a prototype, the target corp isn't going to just throw their hands up and go "aw, shucks.  We sure got the short end of that shadowrun didn't we!".  They're going to at least look into getting it back.  And necessarily, that involves seeing if they can find the thieves who absconded with it to see if they're willing to squeal on who they gave it to.  Sure, eventually they'll realize leads have gone cold and if they haven't found professional shadowrunners by now, they never will.  I happen to think that takes more than a week for corpsec to reach that point.  Hit their profits hard enough, and it'll take months for them to consider pursuing you being wasted nuyen on top of lost nuyen. Maybe even years!  Do a big enough job and yeah, you essentially may have to retire afterwards.  Such a run would be a natural way for a campaign to reach an organic conclusion.

And that's "just" corporations.  Revenge isn't profitable. You do a run against organized crime, and revenge is a matter of honor rather than mitigating losses.  You burn down a bunraku parlor, or geek a Capo, and there's a whole dimension beyond the nuyen.  You don't project strength by having a good laugh about how those Shadowrunners really pulled one over on the family this time.


Now none of what I said is meant to imply that "Kill an Oyabun this week, and the Yakuza have forgotten about it next week" is wrong.  If that's what works for your game, great.  As I led with my earlier post:  It depends on the campaign [as to how long you "need" to lay low between shadowruns].
« Last Edit: <11-24-20/1721:28> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #20 on: <11-24-20/1813:39> »
Unless you are handing out ridiculous stack of cash each run, that 1 really hurts mundanes, and 2 doesn't make much sense to me. If my pay not only has to cover my living expenses but my hide for at least a month expenses, the pay better be insanely good. like 30-40k each minimum. Because 1/2 that will be being used just to lie low.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: <11-24-20/2030:45> »
Why is one run per month "normal".  Do people just want to make the bills? On a meta level don't mundane players want to buy new cyber or upgrade existing cyber, its not nearly as cheap as it was in 4e. so unless each run a month is paying out massive amounts I feel this stagnates mundanes.  We are in more the weekly run camp. And we pay out more than seems the standard if missions etc is a guideline.

It depends on the campaign assumption on how much laying low time is recommended/mandatory in between jobs. 

It won't do to do a job on tuesday, and then another job wednesday night.  The people your tuesday job wronged are still looking for who hit them.
And honestly, if you're doing frequent smaller jobs, then the base rewards are just fine. If you're doing big high-level jobs, having bigger rewards but more downtime (since those jobs don't just fly around all the time) makes a lot of sense. If you're running 20 karma a month, then yes, the training times need a tweak.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #22 on: <11-24-20/2057:46> »
Why is one run per month "normal".  Do people just want to make the bills? On a meta level don't mundane players want to buy new cyber or upgrade existing cyber, its not nearly as cheap as it was in 4e. so unless each run a month is paying out massive amounts I feel this stagnates mundanes.  We are in more the weekly run camp. And we pay out more than seems the standard if missions etc is a guideline.

It depends on the campaign assumption on how much laying low time is recommended/mandatory in between jobs. 

It won't do to do a job on tuesday, and then another job wednesday night.  The people your tuesday job wronged are still looking for who hit them.
And honestly, if you're doing frequent smaller jobs, then the base rewards are just fine. If you're doing big high-level jobs, having bigger rewards but more downtime (since those jobs don't just fly around all the time) makes a lot of sense. If you're running 20 karma a month, then yes, the training times need a tweak.

I suspect they'd need a tweak anyways in almost any campaign, it might not mechanically break but it would both be a hassle and unsatisfactory. Just making sure it doesn't stock pile is the bare minimum of making it work.  But no accounting for taste and all that, so that might work for people, and its a start point of any campaign discussion. 

But okay lets go with the 1 run a month paradigm, to bump a stat from, 5 to 6, that's 12 sessions+ before you see the fruits of your labor.  in my games it would be like 48 sessions. And either way if you are not gaming every week, 12 sessions might be 6 months in real life. That is both a pain in the ass to track, like 1e d&d spell component level of pain in the ass,(which in my youth I enjoyed, but I was rare in that back then) and I suspect frustrating to most players. I suspect most people just want to spend their karma and see the result.  Again there are people who role play their downtime as much or more than the runs, so if you want to role play hitting the gym, shooting the shit while target practicing etc. Maybe long training times will work for your campaign.  Otherwise I suspect most will just see it as a pain in the ass and not worth the hassle. But me, I as a player don't want to die of old age while i am waiting for my characters training to complete. I mostly GM, so we just have people spend karma and next time they show up its done. While we role play downtime a decent amount its not tied specifically to training up where you spent your karma.