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No Maximum Magical Focus Rating?

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j2klbs

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« on: <11-01-20/0054:45> »
I don't see anything in the rules that set a limit on the maximum focus rating (other than a characters can not exceed their magic * 5 in total foci rating.

So, for the sake of an extreme example, if a magic 6 character had the karma, nuyen and availability, they could buy a Weapon Focus <rating 30> to add 30 extra dice to their attacks.  Is that correct?  (Obviously, this is not a good idea, but I'm using an extreme example just to confirm my understanding of the rules.)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <11-01-20/0147:36> »
Well, there's the problem of hitting the availability for such a monstrosity.

And beyond that, there's the (potential) problem of the augmented limit for skills/skill tests.

Arguably, the rule on pg 39 is saying there's a +4 limit to bonus dice on skill tests.  If you read it that way, then there's a hell of a disincentive to pay for a +30 dice focus.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #2 on: <11-01-20/0413:11> »
Even if it is technically allowed to buy a force 30 focus during chargen (post chargen the availability will make it very hard), most Foci (not just weapon foci) augments skills by its force and all your skills are limited to an augmented value of +4.


The exception here are Metamagic foci.

For example, with magic rating of at least 6, the centering metamagic and a force 30 bound centering focus you would technically be allowed to add your initiation grade + 30 to any drain resistance tests (but only as long as you also spend the minor centering action and is allowed to perform your centering act).

But this is also why we have a GM. He would simply tell you No and then hit you repeatedly in the head with a physical copy of the core rule book ;-)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <11-01-20/0421:34> »
One of the current interpretations of the Augmented Skill Cap, which was also intended by at least 1 of the writers, is that it applies to any and all skill-modifiers, except for Expertise/Specialization.

And yes, the Availability would be basically impossible to hit. It also would be nigh impossible to actually craft it. So while you might find a rule-legal way to get it, a GM would simply disallow it. Plus an item that powerful would get Dragons killing you for it.
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j2klbs

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« Reply #4 on: <11-01-20/1125:34> »
Thank you all so much for your replies.  I very much appreciate all of your active participation on these forums.  :D

I recognize the GM can nerf anything, but my group likes to always start from "rules as written" (RAW), and then introduce campaign rules to clarify or limit things.  We strive to all be playing by the same set of rules when there are different GM's.  But the first step on our journey is always to understand the rules as written.

With regard to the +4 augmentation cap, I don't think that would apply.  I interpret the rules on page 39 as a restriction to increasing the skill itself.  In other words, if I have Athletics-6, I can only have spells/gear/etc. increase my Athletics skill to a maximum increase of +4, or, in this case, Athletics-10.

However, in the case of the Weapon Focus, this adds "its Force as a dice-pool bonus on your Attack test".  In other words, it is not increasing the skill itself, but that adding extra dice to the check.

Now, some have suggested that "rules as intended" (RAI) is that only specialization/expertise are allowed to exceed that +4 limit, but I always am wary of RAI arguments because they can be so hearsay and subjective.

If ultimately the +4 limit is applied, then it would logically follow to apply it to most of the other foci including Power foci, Spirit Foci, Enchanting Foci, etc.  All of these are worded as adding extra dice to a check.  So, then we are basically saying the maximum rating of nearly all foci is 4.  That seems somewhat limiting at higher levels of play.  If intended, great!  I'd love to see that as an errata though.

(Oh, and just to clarify, the availability limits do not apply during character creation since these items are not illegal.)
« Last Edit: <11-01-20/1130:16> by j2klbs »

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <11-01-20/1456:01> »
With regard to the +4 augmentation cap, I don't think that would apply. 
You are free to play it however you want, but I am pretty sure it have even been clarified by one of the authors of 6th edition that it does, so....


If ultimately the +4 limit is applied, then it would logically follow to apply it to most of the other foci including Power foci, Spirit Foci, Enchanting Foci, etc.
Yes.

(Hence why I also said that that the only foci that are technically not limited are metamagic foci...)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <11-01-20/1502:30> »
With regard to the +4 augmentation cap, I don't think that would apply. 
You are free to play it however you want, but I am pretty sure it have even been clarified by one of the authors of 6th edition that it does, so....

It does for the purposes of SRM.  So if you play in organized play, that's that.  If you don't play SRM, then every rule is optional/open to reinterpretation anyway.


Still, it's a bit of a giant ass exploit to get +30 dice in anything just because it's theoretically possible.  If you don't want the rule that would prevent that, you ought to make your own to stand in its place.  Or, you know.  Rule that something with that much Force is so bright on the astral that you have eldritch horrors coming for you night and day to kill you and claim the artifact for themselves. YMMV ;)

« Last Edit: <11-01-20/1508:56> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

j2klbs

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« Reply #7 on: <11-01-20/1603:52> »
Thanks for your replies.  I'm happy to follow the SRM rules as guidelines.  :D

j2klbs

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« Reply #8 on: <11-01-20/1744:38> »
Oh wait!  Isn't it true that all gear is limited to Availability 9 (per Availability rules on p. 244).  So therefore, a Weapon Focus 30 is impossible because it exceeds the limit.  The maximum Weapon Focus would be rating 6.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: <11-01-20/1803:47> »
Debatable, in part because that would mean some cyberlimb stats are unobtainable, and some ware at some grades as well. Also, Seven-7 has an availability of 10(I).
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #10 on: <11-01-20/1817:25> »
Debatable, in part because that would mean some cyberlimb stats are unobtainable, and some ware at some grades as well. Also, Seven-7 has an availability of 10(I).

It's still a decent workaround if the skill augmented limit is going to go to ranks instead of bonus dice.  Yeah this rule would have exceptions, but if we were in a place of perfection we wouldn't be having the discussion in the first place :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

j2klbs

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« Reply #11 on: <11-01-20/2357:18> »
Could go with Availability 9 is the limit as a general rule unless overridden by specific items that could exceed this (e.g. Cyberlimb (leg), Seven-7 which both have Availability 10).  This allows for a campaign or GM to always introduce something crazy into the world with Availability 12, 15, etc. but still have the blanket rule of Availability 9 as a safety net to eliminate these kinds of issues/questions.  Just food for thought.

In any case, I always appreciate the dialog.  :D