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Cyberlimbs, Capacity & Smuggling Compartment

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j2klbs

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« on: <09-18-20/1238:55> »
Bodyware (p. 288) lists several items with both an essence cost and capacity as follows: fingertip compartment (0.1, [1]), grapple gun (0.5, [4]), and smuggling compartment (0.2, [2]).  However, the Cyberlimb Accessories (p. 289) *also* lists smuggling compartment but with a capacity of [5] and different availability and costs.

Questions:

1. I assumed if one wanted the body ware, they must pay either the essence or, if they have an appropriate cyberlimb, have the capacity count towards that cyberlimb's capacity.  Is this correct?

2. Why is smuggling compartment listed in two different sections with dramatically different capacity costs ([2] vs. [5])?

Note: I did not see anything in the Feb/2020 errata document discussing smuggling compartment.  Also I noticed a typo in rules under Bodyware listing gear as "earware".

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <09-18-20/1306:00> »
For ware you pay either essence or capacity, yes. As for the smuggling compartments, intent is unclear there but if I had to decide as a GM, I'd go 'the [2] goes for torso, the [5] is for inside any other cyberlimb'.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <09-18-20/1315:26> »
Bodyware (p. 288) lists several items with both an essence cost and capacity as follows: fingertip compartment (0.1, [1]), grapple gun (0.5, [4]), and smuggling compartment (0.2, [2]).  However, the Cyberlimb Accessories (p. 289) *also* lists smuggling compartment but with a capacity of [5] and different availability and costs.

Questions:

1. I assumed if one wanted the body ware, they must pay either the essence or, if they have an appropriate cyberlimb, have the capacity count towards that cyberlimb's capacity.  Is this correct?

Yes.  That's a general truism: you pay the essence for augmentations, with the exception being when you're paying in capacity instead.  You don't ever pay both.

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2. Why is smuggling compartment listed in two different sections with dramatically different capacity costs ([2] vs. [5])?

This is admittedly a head-scratcher.  Since the prices are different, they're clearly not the same thing... even though they have the same rules.  The bodyware iteration has its rules on pg. 287, and the cyberlimb version says in effect "same rules as pg 287."   

I see two ways the rules can work as-printed, given that a cybertorso is a kind of cyberlimb:

1) While the cybertorso is a cyberlimb, the torso is a very different kind of "limb" than say an arm or a leg. Relevant to this case: the torso has much more opportunity to house a void space than an arm or a leg (or a head!) does.  Since the bodyware version of the smuggling compartment gives an option for paying for it in capacity rather than essence, you may opt to use either version of the smuggling compartment in the specific case of the cybertorso cyberlimb.  All other cyberlimbs are restricted to the cyberlimb version of the smuggling compartment detailed on pg. 289.

2) Since a cybertorso is a cyberlimb, it can only house the cyberlimb version of the smuggling compartment.  If you want to have the bodyware version AND pay in capacity, you have to house it in something other than a cybertorso.

I greatly prefer reading #1.  For starters, #2 basically doesn't work.  It's saying "well, you can pay 2 capacity IF some point in the future we publish something new that's compatible".  And secondly, I'm a proponent of the idea that capacity is fungible.  I think you should be able to put a laser rangefinder in your cybereye.  An X-ray sensor in your cyberhand.  Etc.  That's flatly incompatible with reading #2.


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... Also I noticed a typo in rules under Bodyware listing gear as "earware".

Thanks for pointing it out!  That's clearly a copypasta typo.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

j2klbs

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« Reply #3 on: <09-18-20/1513:07> »
Thanks for your replies guys!  :D

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <09-19-20/0310:42> »
Just to clarify further.

You always pay essence when you install an augmentation in your natural body.
You always pay capacity when you install an augmentation into a valid cybernetic device.
You have to pick one of the two.


For example the low light vision eyeware augmentation always cost 0.1 essence (modified by grade and qualities etc) in case you install it as a modification to your natural retinal. But if you already replaced your eyes with cybereyes then it always cost 2 capacity of the remaining total capacity your cybereyes have (you already paid for the essence cost when you earlier replaced your eyes).

Eye-ware is either installed in eyes taking up essence or your cybereyes taking up capacity (low light vision, for example, can never take up capacity in your cybernetic torso shell or your cybernetic arm).

Same with ear-ware. They can either be installed in ears taking up essence or cyberears taking up capacity, but not in other cyberlimbs.

Head-ware is either installed in your head taking up essence or in a cyberlimb taking up capacity (any cyberlimb - not just cyberskull shells, but only if the augmentation have a listed capacity).

Body-ware is either installed in your body taking up essence or in a cyberlimb taking up capacity (any cyberlimb - including cyberskull shells, but only if the augmentation have a listed capacity).



2. Why is smuggling compartment listed in two different sections with dramatically different capacity costs ([2] vs. [5])?
They have two different sizes.

The smaller smuggling compartment that either cost essence or 2 capacity in a cyberlimb can only hold small or mini-sized items. Weapon size nothing bigger than a light pistol.

The larger smuggling compartment that cost 5 capacity (and can never be paid for with essence, it must always go into a cybernetic limb) can hold something the size of a heavy pistol or small SMG (this last part seem to have been lost in translation from 5th edition, but costing more capacity I guess is a clear indication of that it can hold bigger items....)

MercilessMing

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« Reply #5 on: <09-24-20/1113:09> »
Cyber implant firearms:
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pg.291
The only modifications or accessories implanted firearms can accept are laser sights and silencers/sound suppressors.
Surely this is wrong, yeah?  They can't accept internal smartgun systems?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <09-24-20/1506:21> »
Seems a bit weird a restriction, yeah, so I'd allow those anyway. Don't see a good reason to ban them.
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Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #7 on: <09-24-20/1547:02> »
Ming,

That came up in our game over the weekend, with a pistol in a obvious cyber hand. 

I expect the original rule was to stop something like this the image below.  We House Ruled you could add Smart Link but nothing else, again due to the picture below. 



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SL
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: <09-24-20/1639:16> »
Cyber implant firearms:
Quote
pg.291
The only modifications or accessories implanted firearms can accept are laser sights and silencers/sound suppressors.
Surely this is wrong, yeah?  They can't accept internal smartgun systems?

Meh.  it does indeed seem strange, but then again there's nothing stopping you from implanting a gun that simply has one integrally and not have to worry about adding one after-market as a modification, internal OR external.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #9 on: <09-24-20/1714:59> »
Meh.  it does indeed seem strange, but then again there's nothing stopping you from implanting a gun that simply has one integrally and not have to worry about adding one after-market as a modification, internal OR external.
I don't think you want to draw the line at after-market mods, cause then you get to smuggle in all kinds of things.
Should I take a reluctance to add that to errata as a sign that CRB errata is over?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: <09-24-20/1803:05> »
Should I take a reluctance to add that to errata as a sign that CRB errata is over?
If you believe it's a wrong rule, submit it for errata in the errata topic?
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #11 on: <09-24-20/1814:55> »
Cyber implant firearms:
Quote
pg.291
The only modifications or accessories implanted firearms can accept are laser sights and silencers/sound suppressors.
Surely this is wrong, yeah?  They can't accept internal smartgun systems?

My guess is they forgot to add one word. External. You should probably be able to add any internal mod.

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <09-24-20/1824:37> »
In previous edition ranged cyberguns were actual guns, separate from regular handheld weapons. Full stat blocks including ammo capacity, firing modes, damage values etc.

In this edition it seem as if you instead buy a weapon-type-specific weapon 'slot' that cost essence or capacity and then you buy and install the actual gun separately (from the regular handheld weapons list).

Interesting....
« Last Edit: <09-24-20/1834:04> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <09-24-20/1858:41> »
In previous edition ranged cyberguns were actual guns, separate from regular handheld weapons. Full stat blocks including ammo capacity, firing modes, damage values etc.

In this edition it seem as if you instead buy a weapon-type-specific weapon 'slot' that cost essence or capacity and then you buy and install the actual gun separately (from the regular handheld weapons list).

Interesting....

Yeah, I too presumed the cyber implant guns were fully statted guns.. and that they already included smartlinks (which would have explained why you couldn't add them as an option).

But now that they're mounts that extant gear (like implanted cyberdecks)... as I said it is indeed odd that you can add a laser sight but not a smartgun mod.  But if you want an implanted gun with a smartgun system... you do have ample choices available.  You just have to pick a model that comes with one without needing to mod it.

Meh.  it does indeed seem strange, but then again there's nothing stopping you from implanting a gun that simply has one integrally and not have to worry about adding one after-market as a modification, internal OR external.
...
Should I take a reluctance to add that to errata as a sign that CRB errata is over?

Short answer: No. 

Longer answer: there's plenty of proposed errata that's still in logjam.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: <09-24-20/1905:12> »
Apparently the French translation reads: "It can use all internal modifications, including smartguns"
Which I guess make sense since you are paying capacity for the exterior dimensions of a specific weapon type.
« Last Edit: <09-24-20/1907:11> by Xenon »