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Running Silently in SR6

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cuidaBeja

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« on: <09-15-20/0042:39> »
It's an opposed check using attributes that your average, out of the box commlink wouldn't have.

Can non-deckers run silently in 6e? It's a Slease+Willpower to oppose their matrix perception, so where do these come from?

cuidaBeja

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« Reply #1 on: <09-15-20/0047:57> »
I'm going to reply to my own thread with my gut instinct, which is that it's only possible with DNI, where you only get your willpower?

I don't like this answer though, because it's weird and gives the un-augmented mind the ability to do something unnatural just because you put on a funny hat.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <09-15-20/0119:59> »
You don't need DNI to apply your mental stats to matrix resistance tests.  You can always apply those.

However, you DO need a Sleaze stat to be able for that to contribute to the dice pool.  Non hackers will ordinarily just be adding 0 dice for Sleaze.  Ergo, they're not as good at it.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #3 on: <09-15-20/0519:05> »
I'm going to reply to my own thread with my gut instinct, which is that it's only possible with DNI, where you only get your willpower?

I don't like this answer though, because it's weird and gives the un-augmented mind the ability to do something unnatural just because you put on a funny hat.
Fair warning: I don't like these rules, I think they are bad.

The canonical answer is that Willpower used in Matrix defence tests represents how well the owner of the device has set up and configured it to protect against attacks. It isn't any sort of active in-the-moment defence. Indeed, it's even rolled when the owner is completely unaware any attack is taking place (eg the device is being targeted for Hack on the Fly.)

"Unattended" devices never roll Willpower, they always roll their own device rating or a host rating instead. There's not a lot of guidance on where the line is between attended and unattended. If I hack a guy's commlink, he rolls Willpower. If I kill him then hack his commlink, it... rolls Willpower, I guess? If I find an old commlink in his house that he hasn't used in years, it rolls... device rating? Maybe?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <09-15-20/0934:04> »
In 6th edition You never roll device rating.  A completely undefended device rolls 0 dice.  But there's not really supposed to be any completely undefended devices... if it's important its part of a network... in a PAN or guarded by a host.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

0B

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« Reply #5 on: <09-15-20/1006:16> »
If that's the case, then shouldn't I wait for executive jimbob to go to sleep before hacking into his commlink? Or is the assumption there that folks are environmentally-conscious and turn off devices when not in use?

Maybe it's an edge case, but if a device is significantly easier to hack when unattended, players will want to do that. Come to think of it, if I steal the commlink, is hacking it trivial? I'm OK with that, since getting data off of a computer you have physical access to is trivial unless the drive is encrypted via bitlocker or whatever. Unsure how that would affect game balance.

I think it would make more sense (As a house rule) to just roll Firewall * 2 in situations where willpower doesn't apply- it's already in there as an alternate for some actions.

penllawen

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« Reply #6 on: <09-15-20/1006:50> »
if it's important its part of a network... in a PAN or guarded by a host.
What about stuff ordinary people own? Given there's a "device rating x 3" PAN size limit on their commlinks, I mean.

I think it would make more sense (As a house rule) to just roll Firewall * 2 in situations where willpower doesn't apply- it's already in there as an alternate for some actions.
This is my take also.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <09-15-20/1021:50> »
If that's the case, then shouldn't I wait for executive jimbob to go to sleep before hacking into his commlink? Or is the assumption there that folks are environmentally-conscious and turn off devices when not in use?

Maybe it's an edge case, but if a device is significantly easier to hack when unattended, players will want to do that. Come to think of it, if I steal the commlink, is hacking it trivial? I'm OK with that, since getting data off of a computer you have physical access to is trivial unless the drive is encrypted via bitlocker or whatever. Unsure how that would affect game balance.

as mentioned previously... if the device is part of a PAN, it's still part of that PAN while the owner is asleep.  Or, strictly speaking, even while the owner is dead.

Quote
I think it would make more sense (As a house rule) to just roll Firewall * 2 in situations where willpower doesn't apply- it's already in there as an alternate for some actions.

I agree that un-networked devices ought to roll SOMETHING.  Firewall + 0 is probably more appropriate than Firewall x 2, as you'll soon get into territory where it's better to roll Firewall x 2 rather than Firewall + WIL.   But either way... the CRB basically just assumes everything is networked and doesn't directly discuss hacking un-networked devices.  Perhaps the hacker book will.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #8 on: <09-15-20/1306:39> »
As a GM I wouldn't ask for a hacking check against an unattended device.  It's hacked, carry on.  When you're looking at 12+ dice vs 4 or less with no meaningful consequences for failure?  It's like asking the Rigger to make a drive test to make a Soybucks run, or asking the Gun Bunny to roll dice to shoot a house they're standing in. 

Honestly, I wouldn't ask a Hacker PC to make a dice check vs most stuff slaved to a PAN as they'll typically have two to three times the dice pool.  If the dice do happen to viciously attack and the hacker fails, they just roll again 3 seconds later. 

Hosts, other Hackers, stuff slaved to Cyberjacks/RCCs that have a decent Firewall and someone paying attention, sure.  Otherwise, "Yep, you hack it.  What do want to do with it?"

(None of this applies to a character that dabbles in hacking and has a lower dice pool)

Xenon

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« Reply #9 on: <09-15-20/1507:17> »
Can non-deckers run silently in 6e?
In 6th edition you can set your commlink (or RCC or cyberdeck or living persona) to silent running mode. This will in effect make it harder for people to notice your [entire personal] network.

View this as the matrix version of using stealth.

While using regular stealth you typically take a Stealth + Agility test and then you use the net hits as a threshold for potential observers when they later take their Perception + Intuition test to see if they spot you.

Similar when running silent you typically take a Willpower + Sleaze test (if your network does not have a Sleaze attribute you just roll Willpower as a dice pool of its own) and you use the net hits as a threshold for potential observers when they later take their Electronics + Intuition test to see if they spot you.

For example, if a guard is patrolling a dark alley where two ninjas are sneaking around the guard would take a single Perception + Intuition test. And depending on how many hits he or she got on the test he or she might spot both ninjas, just one of them or none of them.

You resolve matrix perception in a similar way. If a spider is patrolling a host where two hackers are sneaking around the spider would take a single Electronics + Intuition test. And depending on how many hits he or she got on the test he or she might spot both silent running hackers, just one of them or none of them.

Note that similar to how trying to sneak around in the middle of the day in the middle of a mall will probably attract more attention to yourself than if you didn't try to sneak, there are also several situations where running silent will probably attract more attention to yourself than if you don't run silent (openly walking through a SIN verification checkpoint while your PAN is running silent, for example).



I'm going to reply to my own thread with my gut instinct, which is that it's only possible with DNI, where you only get your willpower?
DNI is not really part of the equation...

It have been said that the mental attribute in the opposed test typically reflect the user's previous security settings and if the user have been updating to latest security patches etc.

This is why the owner will also typically oppose the test using his or her mental attribute even while sleeping (or if knocked unconscious etc).

It have been suggested that a device might count as 'unattended' and no longer get to defend with the owners mental attributes if it have been physically away from its owner for a longer period of time.



In 6th edition You never roll device rating.  A completely undefended device rolls 0 dice. 
Yes.

Having said that, It have also been suggested that if a device is not part of a network and does not have any matrix attributes of its own still at least get to use its Device Rating to stand in for it's Firewall (but not Data Processing or mental attributes).

Then again, as Hobbes said, would you ask your players to actually roll their 12+ dice against 1-2 (or perhaps 3) dice where they win on a tie, when there is typically nothing at stake and they can simply roll again if they against all odds fail the test....?



What about stuff ordinary people own?
It have been suggested that device rating x 3 applies to 'smarter' devices such as drones, smart firing platforms and vehicles etc as well as important devices you might wish to keep part of your PAN even if you are not actually wearing them on your body. But that an unlimited amount of electronic devices you carry with you are also part of your mobile personal network.

5th edition actually have the same dilemma... where you have several pages (such as SR5 p. 217 and SR5 p. 219) talking about a PAN as (potentially) hundreds of electronic devices you carry on your body and other pages (such as SR5 p. 233 and SR5 p. 266) talking about a PAN as the strict combination of a single master device (commlink/cyberdeck/RCC) and a handful devices (such as drones) slaved to the master device.



the CRB basically just assumes everything is networked and doesn't directly discuss hacking un-networked devices. 
In SR5 devices were often assumed to be stand alone (due to the direct connection exploit only devices that could be physically protected were assumed to be slaved to a host). All devices had their own firewall and they even caused unresisted matrix damage on a failed attack attempts against them. In 5th edition you always had to gain access on individual devices, even if you already had access on the network they were part of.

In SR6, however, devices (at least devices that matter) are assumed to (almost) always be part of a network. There is no longer any direct connection that let you bypass network ratings. Devices no longer have firewall of their own. Failed attack actions no longer cause unresisted matrix damage. Gain access on the network. Do your thing. If you already have access on the network the device is part of, do your thing directly.
« Last Edit: <09-15-20/1511:32> by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: <09-15-20/1549:31> »
The best moment to target a Host is when there's few spiders of that corp available. Poison some of them, do a fake attack on another Host of the corp, then immediately go at the Host you're really after: They'll be delayed a bit and won't respond as quickly as they should when you set off an alarm, because they're pre-occupied and out of backup.
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