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« on: <09-02-20/1537:21> »
New Survey

This one's about your favorite editions

Old Survey

I don't want to veer too far off-topic in the State of 6e thread.

Basically, this is a form asking different questions about what you like/dislike about 6e. Since it's been over a year since 6e was released, presumably a lot of the kneejerk reactions will have simmered down. Or maybe not!

I'll post the graphs in a week, but DM me if you want the raw google sheets data
« Last Edit: <09-18-20/1925:17> by 0B »

0B

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« Reply #1 on: <09-08-20/1952:20> »
Results!

It's here! The survey results that nobody asked for! DM me if you want the raw data.

Image Gallery

A couple things to note:

* These are very small sample sizes! Even at 95% confidence level, you're going to have an interval of +/- 5 to 20 percent. It's also tricky to estimate population- reddit says it has 38,800 users, but only 200 or so are on at any given time. I'm sure some of those users never even saw the survey. I'm sure quite a few saw it, and ignored it! I overestimated total population to be registered users on each site, for a population of 60,000 total. (39,000 on reddit, 7,500 on official forms, and 13,500 on dumpshock).
* Not everyone answered every question. This is normal. However, some are more heavily impacted- IE, 52 people answered "what do you like about 6e", and 75 people answered "what don't you like about 6e."
* Where people came from (Dumpshock, Official Forums, Reddit) affects their responses: IE, a larger proportion of people on the Official Forums like 6e compared to Dumpshock. However, it's hard to say this for sure given the small sample sizes
* At minimum, understand this: 1.) This poll represents an estimate of the opinions of the three places I polled, it may not be representative of the entire SR playerbase. The phrase "Only 10% of people like 6e" is false. "Only 10% of those polled like 6e" is true. "Only about 10% of people on the official forums, dumpshock, and reddit like 6e" is close, but again there's large intervals, so this could be misleading. 2.) These results are significant. Sure, the actual amount of people that like 6e might not be 10%. It could be anywhere from 4 - 17%, with 95% confidence. However, doesn't that still tell us that less than half of the players on these three boards like SR 6e? 3.) Yes, some of these results are  going to be obvious. Of the things people like about 6e, it's the setting, the theme the dice system that's been used since 4e, skills, and the matrix. People dislike editing quality, edge, mechanics in general, character creation, and the lack of clear rules.

The questions for this survey are as follows:

Single-select Questions

For these, the confidence range is 95%. I used this site to calculate the intervals. Use This one if you run into trouble.

What sent you to this survey?

* 44/79 (55.7%) of respondents came from /r/Shadowrun
* 17/79 (21.5%) of respondents came from Dumpshock
* 17/79 (21.5%) of respondents came from Official Forums
* 1/79 (1.3%) put down "ZeeMastermind" in the "Other." *I'm assuming they came from reddit, since I use other usernames on the official forums and Dumpshock (Middle School me thinks "ZeeMastermind" is a better username than I do). This is not me, I did not fill out the survey. I simply made this a "Other" question when it really shouldn't have been*

Have you bought a Shadowrun CRB before the release of 6e?

* 73/79 (92.4%, +/- 5.8%) "Yes"
* 1/79 (1.3%, +/- 2.5%) "No"
* 5/79 (6.3%, +/- 5.4%) "I pirated a CRB (Only select if you HAVE NEVER bought a CRB)"

Have you played Shadowrun before the release of 6e?

* 78/79 (98.7%, +/- 2.5%) "Yes"
* 1/79 (1.3%, +/- 2.5%) "No"

Did you buy the 6e Core Rulebook (6e)?

* 36/79 (45.6%, +/- 11%) "Yes"
* 22/79 (27.8%, +/- 9.9%) "No"
* 21/79 (26.6%, +/- 9.7%) "I pirated it (Only select if you DID NOT buy 6e after pirating it)"

Do you like 6e?

* 8/77 (10.4%, +/- 6.8%) "Yes"
* 53/77 (68.8%, +/- 10.3%) "No"
* 16.77 (20.8%, +/- 9.1%) "It's complicated"

Here is the breakdown of the first few questions by source:

Dumpshock
* 100% have bought a Shadowrun CRB before the release of 6e
* 0% have pirated and never bought a Shadowrun CRB before the release of 6e
* 100% have played Shadowrun before the release of 6e
* 23.53% pirated and never bought the 6e CRB
* 17.65% bought the 6e CRB
* 5.88% liked 6e
* 0% said "it's complicated" about liking 6e
* 17 total respondents

Official Forums
* 100% have bought a Shadowrun CRB before the release of 6e
* 0% have pirated and never bought a CRB before the release of 6e
* 100% have played Shadowrun before the release of 6e
* 76.47% bought the 6e CRB
* 17.65% pirated and never bought the 6e CRB
* 17.65% liked 6e
* 35.29% said "it's complicated" about liking 6e
* 17 total respondents

/r/Shadowrun
* 86.36% have bought a Shadowrun CRB before the release of 6e
* 11.36% have pirated and never bought a CRB before the release of 6e
* 97.73% have played Shadowrun before the release of 6e
* 43.18% bought the 6e CRB
* 31.82% pirated and never bought the 6e CRB
* 9.09% liked 6e
* 22.73% said "it's complicated" about liking 6e
* 44 total respondents

bizarro-ZeeMastermind
* 100% have bought a Shadowrun CRB before the release of 6e
* 0% have pirated and never bought a CRB before the release of 6e
* 100% have played Shadowrun before the release of 6e
* 100% bought the 6e CRB
* 0% pirated and never bought the 6e CRB
* 0% liked 6e
* 0% said "it's complicated" about liking 6e
* 1 total respondent

Multi-select Questions

I do not provide confidence ranges for these questions. Feel free to calculate it.

What do you like about 6e/why do you play 6e?

For this question, the percentage based on the number of people who answered the question is on the left. The percentage based on the total number of respondents is on the right.

* 44/53 (83%) OR 44/79 (55.7%) "I like the setting"
* 8/53 (15.1%) OR 8/79 (10.1%) "I like the mechanics"
* 7/53 (13.2%) OR 7/79 (8.9%) "I like the mechanics (Magic)"
* 10/53 (18.9%) OR 10/79 (12.7%) "I like the mechanics (Combat)"
* 14/53 (26.4%) OR 14/79 (17.7%) "I like the mechanics (Matrix)"
* 16/53 (30.2%) OR 16/79 (20.3%) "I like the mechanics (Skills)"
* 8/53 (15.1%) OR 8/79 (10.1%) "I like the mechanics (Character Creation)"
* 17/53 (32.1%) OR 17/79 (21.5%) "I like the mechanics (Core dice pool mechanics)"
* 7/53 (13.2%) OR 7/79 (8.9%) "I like the mechanics (Edge)"
* 3/53 (5.7%) OR 3/79 (3.8%) "I like Catalyst Game Labs"
* 9/53 (17%) OR 9/79 (11.4%) "I like the CRB Fiction"
* 6/53 (11.3%) OR 6/79 (7.6%) "My group plays 6e"
* 0/53 (0%) OR 0/79 (0%) "Word-of-mouth"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Price"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Editing Quality (Spelling, grammar, active voice, etc.)"
* 5/53 (9.4%) OR 5/79 (6.3%) "Easy to Learn"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Rules are Clear"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Style/Syntax (Word choice, tone, sentence flow, etc.)"
* 23/53 (43.4%) OR 23/79 (29.1%) "Theme/genre"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: I don't play it"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: The dapper shark meme: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/367180742595313664/618362220765642763/5qzthwxfh6k31.png (1), https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/365227581018079235/689905930682237004/9d198e5c57f6cc2853b70afe7a729849.png (2)"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other:  The prospect of a less convoluted version of 5th Edition sounded nice..."
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: Previous player, wanted to try current rule set"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: Treating drugs like toxins for unified rules! Yay!"
* 1/53 (1.9%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: to be clear, I *don't* like what has been done with the setting since 6e, but I am broadly fine with most aspects of it before 6e, with the notable exception that I think forcing black ops cyberware to be constantly broadcasting an obvious signal is incredibly stupid, and that if you're going to go the extra mile to support matrix PCs who absolutely refuse to act outside the matrix (not that I consider that a worthy goal), it should be done by providing them options in the environment if and where it makes sense, not by having the entire planet decide that wired reflexes which formerly worked just fine without a matrix connection spontaneously don't function without it."

What don't you like about 6e/why don't you play 6e?

For this question, the percentage based on the number of people who answered the question is on the left. The percentage based on the total number of respondents is on the right.

* 9/76(11.8%) OR 9/79 (11.4%) "I dislike the setting"
* 46/76 (60.5%) OR 46/79 (58.2%) "I dislike the mechanics"
* 29/76 (38.2%) OR 29/79 (36.7%) "I dislike the mechanics (Magic)"
* 34/76 (44.7%) OR 34/79 (43%) "I dislike the mechanics (Combat)"
* 27/76 (35.5%) OR 27/79 (34.2%) "I dislike the mechanics (Matrix)"
* 19/76 (25%) OR 19/79 (24.1%) "I dislike the mechanics (Skills)"
* 35/76 (46.1%) OR 35/79 (44.3%) "I dislike the mechanics (Character Creation)"
* 16/76 (21.1%) OR 16/79 (20.3%) "I dislike the mechanics (Core dice pool mechanics)"
* 48/76 (63.2%) OR 48/79 (60.8%) "I dislike the mechanics (Edge)"
* 40/76 (52.6%) OR 40/79 (50.6%) "I dislike Catalyst Game Labs"
* 16/76 (21.1%) OR 16/79 (20.3%) "I dislike the CRB Fiction"
* 6/76 (7.9%) OR 6/79 (7.6%) "I do not want to learn a new edition"
* 31/76 (40.8%) OR 31/79 (39.2%) "My group plays a different edition"
* 15/76 (19.7%) OR 15/79 (19%) "Word-of-mouth"
* 11/76 (14.5%) OR 11/79 (13.9%) "Price"
* 58/76 (76.3%) OR 58/79 (73.4%) "Editing Quality (Spelling, grammar, active voice, etc.)"
* 17/76 (22.4%) OR 17/79 (21.5%) "Not easy to Learn"
* 45/76 (59.2%) OR 45/79 (57%) "Rules are not Clear"
* 31/76 (40.8%) OR 31/79 (39.2%) "Style/Syntax (Word choice, tone, sentence flow, etc.)"
* 3/76 (3.9%) OR 3/79 (3.8%) "Theme/genre"
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: The writers broke coherence between fiction and mechanics."
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: The mechanics make no sense, they do not reflect real world gun fights nor combat in any form. They are useless at everything they try do combat-wise."
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: Doubling Down on shit nobody liked in the previous Editions. Some games arnt ment to be simplified. Also lookin at you Todd Howard"
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: Playing Pathfinder"
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: Oversimplification"
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: urning Seattle into Hong Kong because the HK people left is weaksauce. The whole Fiat-EMP plot is horrible and the missing SuperSoldiers from Hell are not better either. It's peak MagicRun."
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: disliking matrix rules was a bit broad. I like the idea of technomancers. I don't like the current existing rules for them. I also don't like what has been done with the setting since 6e started in terms of plot."
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: The nerfing of cyberware/bioware that started in 5th edtion.  I do not know why you had to make decking so stupidly expensive and making Street Sams all but unplayable."
* 1/76 (1.3%) OR 1/79 (1.3%) "Other: Low Production Quality"

Which of the following have you gone to for information on new games in the past year?

* 64/77 (83.1%) "reddit[.]com/r/shadowrun"
* 25/77 (32.5%) "reddit[.]com/r/rpg"
* 16/77 (20.8%) "Another reddit sub"
* 47/77 (61%) "Official Shadowrun Forums"
* 31/77 (40.3%) "Dumpshock Forums"
* 15/77 (19.5%) "RPG.net"
* 12/77 (15.6%) "Another forum"
* 39/77 (50.6%) "Drive-Thru RPG"
* 33/77 (42.9%) "Drive-Thru RPG Reviews"
* 13/77 (16.9%) "Another website"
* 17/77 (22.1%) "Local Game Store (FLGS)"
* 8/77 (10.4%) "SCN Discord (Shadowrun Community Network, previously Shadowcasters Network)"
* 22/77 (28.6%) "Another Discord Server"
* 2/77 (2.6%) "CGL Mailing List"
* 3/77 (3.9%) "ShadowRN Mailing List"
* 2/77 (2.6%) "Other Mailing List"
* 9/77 (11.7%) "Official CGL Website"
* 13/77 (16.9%) "Official Shadowrun Website"
* 1/77 (1.3%) "Other: srg"
* 1/77 (1.3%) "Other: 4chan"
* 1/77 (1.3%) "Other: Shadowrunners' Union Facebook group"
* 1/77 (1.3%) "Other: TheRPGsite, RPGpub"

Open-ended Question

What are your candid thoughts on 6e?

* Completely useless for quantitative analysis, but may help generate ideas that I hadn't thought of.
* Link
« Last Edit: <09-08-20/2230:48> by 0B »

FastJack

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« Reply #2 on: <09-08-20/2140:56> »
I meant to ask this before, but did you have a way of tracking/preventing someone from taking the survey more than once?

0B

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« Reply #3 on: <09-08-20/2229:50> »
Nope! And if I asked folks to put in an email or something like that, or made them aware that I was tracking their IP, I would get under-reporting on piracy. (Similarly, it would be unethical to track users without telling them, especially when I'm asking them about something like piracy.) There's also no good way to make that perfect- changing IPs is trivial, and emails can be made for free or faked. Perhaps there's a google login feature, but that would certainly get me under-reporting on piracy if their answers are tied to an account.

So it's a debate between what's more likely:
* Someone doesn't want to associate their IP or email with piracy, and therefore gives me erroneous data
* Someone decides to take a survey multiple times in order to bias the data... in an unofficial survey that nobody at CGL is involved in or cares about. I don't see the payoff beyond trolling? Maybe?

The first one seemed like a definite occurrence, the second one seemed less likely. So, I didn't track survey-takers.

If we thought someone was borking with the data, the best way to look for it would be timestamps. I can't imagine anyone having the patience to wait more than 5 minutes between "tries" for something without a payoff. You can also try looking for similarities in writing style for the "candid thoughts" question, since 61 respondents answered that.

There are several responses within 5 minutes of each other on the first day that I posted this. However, the answers on each of them are different, and the "candid thoughts" appears to have different styles as well. If someone was answering the survey repeatedly, they were not doing so in a way to push an agenda. If someone went through the effort to send in a response every 30-60 minutes, using sentences crafted to appear as different people, then they've outsmarted me.

Either way, if you want to look at the raw data to be sure, it is here.

Lormyr

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« Reply #4 on: <09-09-20/0705:07> »
My favorite take aways:

1. The top two things that are liked at SR6 are the setting and genre, or have nothing at all to do with the new mechanics.

2. 45.6% of people bought the book and only 10.4% like the edition, proving that people still throw their money at things before they even know if they will like it or not, also proving that sales figures of the crb do not necessarily prove success of the product.

3. 52.6% of the responders dislike catalyst itself.

Neat to see so raw statistics oB, thanks for taking the effort.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

0B

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« Reply #5 on: <09-09-20/1532:54> »
It's confirming a lot of other things we've seen: of the mechanics that people do like, it's the core d6 system, skills, and matrix. Matrix might actually be a bit higher, as one respondent clarified that they only dislike technomancers, not the rest of it, even though they selected that they disliked the Matrix. What you gonna do

This stuff's fun to do!

Reaver

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« Reply #6 on: <09-09-20/1559:32> »
The only thing that could be skewing your expectations is where you did your polling.
For example, I have accounts at all 3 sites. (here, dumpshock, Reddit), And I am sure you will find that is the case for most people... So you don't really have 3 separate communities with a total of 60,000 potential respondents. Its more likely your total pool size is closer to just 40K (Reddit), as the more dedicated fans will have accounts on all 3 sites, with this site being the smallest.


Not that it really matters as you are only tracking responses...


(And, for the record, I didn't take the survey as I have yet to purchase, or even fully read 6e, and the hour or so I spent with the book is not enough time to give an accurate accounting of the CRB in my opinion.)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

adzling

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« Reply #7 on: <09-09-20/1622:31> »
....
1. The top two things that are liked at SR6 are the setting and genre, or have nothing at all to do with the new mechanics.

2. 45.6% of people bought the book and only 10.4% like the edition, proving that people still throw their money at things before they even know if they will like it or not, also proving that sales figures of the crb do not necessarily prove success of the product.

3. 52.6% of the responders dislike catalyst itself....

The first is a strength for Shadowrun I.P.

The second is pretty damning refutation of the "change is bad" meme that M.C. and other apologists have been pushing.

The third is an horrific indictment of Catalyst.
If 50% of your customers hate you then you're gonna have issues.

Overall, I couldn't think of a better argument for selling the I.P. to another holder than this.

Well, except the CEO of Catalyst laughing at his customers not getting product they paid for and embezzling enough money to force the writers to go hungry.

Lormyr

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« Reply #8 on: <09-09-20/1640:34> »
Yeah man, that last bit in particular. Like how much of a rolling shitbag do you have to be before people treat you according to your behavior? If I had been someone that suffered as a result of his actions there'd have been headlines.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

0B

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« Reply #9 on: <09-09-20/1704:15> »
The only thing that could be skewing your expectations is where you did your polling.
For example, I have accounts at all 3 sites. (here, dumpshock, Reddit), And I am sure you will find that is the case for most people... So you don't really have 3 separate communities with a total of 60,000 potential respondents. Its more likely your total pool size is closer to just 40K (Reddit), as the more dedicated fans will have accounts on all 3 sites, with this site being the smallest.

That doesn't create skew, population affects the size of the confidence intervals. I overestimated population to create larger confidence intervals: this means that my results are going to be less precise, but I will maintain accuracy. If I estimate a smaller population, my results will be more precise, but may not be as accurate.

To be honest, the "true population" is likely somewhere in the hundreds, maybe low thousands. /r/shadowrun has about 200 registered users online at any given time, and it's smaller for this forum and for dumpshock. If we were to only count users that are active in a community (IE, not ones that were last online 5 years ago), then the population size would be much smaller.

For sake of argument, let's say the wild mass guess of 40k is the true population. That would change the values of "Do you like 6e" to the following:

* 8/77 (10.39%, +/- 6.81%) "Yes"
* 53/77 (68.83%, +/- 10.34%) "No"
* 16/77 (20.78%, +/- 9.05%) "It's complicated"

Another way to guess the population is based on how many people clicked on the poll itself. Response rate might be anywhere from 5-50%. Understandably, not everyone who participates in these communities would notice the survey in the week it was up. Let's say only 5% of active community members partook in the survey. This would put the active population at 1,580. These are the values for this population:

* 8/77 (10.39%, +/- 6.65%) "Yes"
* 53/77 (68.83%, +/- 10.09%) "No"
* 16/77 (20.78%, +/- 8.84) "It's complicated"

So, the effects of the size of the total population are going to be minor upon the confidence intervals. Larger sample sizes would be a better way to mitigate this, but I can't force people to take a survey. In fact, I noticed an error running through this- I had been using a sample size of 79, not 77, in my calculations. These are the results for a sample size of 77 against a population of 60,000:

* 8/77 (10.39%, +/- 6.81%) "Yes"
* 53/77 (68.83%, +/- 10.34%) "No"
* 16/77 (20.78%, +/- 9.06%) "It's complicated"

....
1. The top two things that are liked at SR6 are the setting and genre, or have nothing at all to do with the new mechanics.

2. 45.6% of people bought the book and only 10.4% like the edition, proving that people still throw their money at things before they even know if they will like it or not, also proving that sales figures of the crb do not necessarily prove success of the product.

3. 52.6% of the responders dislike catalyst itself....

The first is a strength for Shadowrun I.P.

The second is pretty damning refutation of the "change is bad" meme that M.C. and other apologists have been pushing.

The third is an horrific indictment of Catalyst.
If 50% of your customers hate you then you're gonna have issues.

Overall, I couldn't think of a better argument for selling the I.P. to another holder than this.

Well, except the CEO of Catalyst laughing at his customers not getting product they paid for and embezzling enough money to force the writers to go hungry.

Be careful here- it's NOT 50% of customers. It's 50% of shadowrun fans on this site, reddit, and the official forums. We have no evidence to say one way or the other if this is a good representation of all CGL customers.

adzling

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« Reply #10 on: <09-09-20/1848:00> »
Be careful here- it's NOT 50% of customers. It's 50% of shadowrun fans on this site, reddit, and the official forums. We have no evidence to say one way or the other if this is a good representation of all CGL customers.

Good point, the folks on the sites are almost certainly more dedicated and knowledgeable than the ones who are not and so may not be a good cross section of opinion.

penllawen

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« Reply #11 on: <09-10-20/0329:29> »
To be honest, the "true population" is likely somewhere in the hundreds, maybe low thousands. /r/shadowrun has about 200 registered users online at any given time, and it's smaller for this forum and for dumpshock.
Specifically for /r/shadowrun, I suspect it has a small DAU but a large MAU, if you see what I mean. A lot of people check in once in a while but aren't regulars; the true regulars are a fairly small group.

I don't have much to go on other than my own observations of poster names, though.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #12 on: <09-10-20/0707:48> »
To be honest, the "true population" is likely somewhere in the hundreds, maybe low thousands. /r/shadowrun has about 200 registered users online at any given time, and it's smaller for this forum and for dumpshock.
Specifically for /r/shadowrun, I suspect it has a small DAU but a large MAU, if you see what I mean. A lot of people check in once in a while but aren't regulars; the true regulars are a fairly small group.

I don't have much to go on other than my own observations of poster names, though.
You also have to a lot of forum posters ( myself included) are shadowrun fans but for early editions. And come here for news not for 6th.

topcat

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« Reply #13 on: <09-10-20/0951:12> »
Would be interesting to see how the answers break down if you remove the people who didn't buy it or pirated it.  Neither of those are relevant for SR6 purposes, since they aren't customers.

0B

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« Reply #14 on: <09-10-20/1137:25> »
I disagree to a certain extent- the opinions of people who bought a previous CRB, but not 6e, should also be significant. This is someone who is in the potential market for SR, but decided not to buy the most recent edition.

Look at it from a business perspective: if someone already bought the CRB, why should their opinion matter to CGL? Even if they dislike it, that just shows that they'll buy a book anyways, regardless of its quality. Food for thought.

You can use the data and COUNTIFS to look at other questions, but here is the breakdown for "Do you like 6e" based on if someone purchased a book:



Under your criteria, of looking at people who bought the book:
* 7/36 (19%) like 6e
* 14/36 (39%) are "complicated" about 6e
* 15/36 (42%) dislike 6e

Looking at the criteria of people who bought a book in the past (May or may not have bought 6e):
* 7/71 (10%) like 6e
* 14/71 (20%) are "complicated" about 6e
* 50/71 (70%) dislike 6e