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Riggers

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Banshee

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« on: <11-23-20/1525:18> »
Ok so I'm posting this here because it it is not rule specific but definitely may have some crossover, but....

What do you all want to see in a new rigger book?
Other than fixing the mess that is in the CRB ... I know that already.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #1 on: <11-23-20/1717:35> »
Overflow boxes for Vehicles and Drones so they can be disabled, but still repaired.

Maneuver rules that scale somewhat from Wageslave/Autopilot to Samurai Wheelman to "Hold My Beer" Rigger stuff. 

Vehicle and Drone customization, what we had in 5th was good I thought.

Couple Matrix Actions for Riggers.

"Throwback" option for Vehicle Riggers.

Hobbes

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« Reply #2 on: <11-23-20/1722:02> »
Oh, and Used Vehicles and Pirated Autosofts.  Off the top of my head, a 5% cost reduction for each decrease of the number of "1s" needed to Glitch.  Somewhere in that ballpark anyway. 

Marcus

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« Reply #3 on: <11-23-20/1722:27> »
So I think rigger has two path ways that are the common fantasy of the archetype. The wheelman and then the drone rider. The issue inherent with this is your rigger general isn’t with the party. Resolving or embracing this component of the archetype is necessary. I’m sure a method could be found to make rigger effective direct combatants (think artificers from 5e dnd). But it simply comes down to expectations of the concept. You share something of the decker issue if you have then absent.

Personally I think adding gear to make them personally effective is the way to go. Heavy rigger armor with droned weapons systems basically is Where my head goes with it. But certainly that would be fairly major change from them as written in the core.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: <11-24-20/0640:54> »
A way to overclock drones so they can hit an extra initiative die, meaning they can move and do 2 Majors. Players can get Cyberjacks, would be nice if Pilots also can get buffed.

Some example maneuvers for GMs, so they don't hold on to (Handling) all the time, but realise lower thresholds are allowed, and even a threshold 0 can be fine (no need to roll if you're doing something simple, unless it's in a frickin' van).

Lower penalties for unopposed Handling tests, since both high Handling AND low speed intervals now is too much of a punishment. (Why in previous discussions I suggested halving speed penalties for unopposed Handling tests, only using the full number for opposed and for attacking from a driving vehicle.)

Some interesting vehicle-chase options, with ones focusing on making the corners vs ones working through obstacle courses.

A way for drones to survive getting downed, perhaps Overflow of some sorts.

Location-specific shots that don't automatically cripple the vehicle, but do cause penalties.

A tank.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #5 on: <11-24-20/1027:34> »
A way to overclock drones so they can hit an extra initiative die, meaning they can move and do 2 Majors. Players can get Cyberjacks, would be nice if Pilots also can get buffed.

(Probably) unpopular opinion: I donīt think that Drones and Vehicles should have these high Iniative and Action counts in the first place. Their appeal should be shere numbers, specialisation and (depending on the drone) durability. Having the same action economy as a dedicated street sam by default doesnīt belong in that list IMO. Multiple Attacks for multiple Drones tends to clog up table time and takes appeal from piloting them yourself, since they will usally just as fast as jumped-in rigger and faster than mostr riggers with manual controls.

However: If the default IDs of Autopilots were lower, it would be an excellent idea to add an Initiative Boost option to autopiloted drones.

A way for drones to survive getting downed, perhaps Overflow of some sorts.

Yes, please! And reasonable repair costs this time!

A tank.

More precisely: A Cyberpunk Tank, with spider legs and a kawaii anime voice option :D

Ok, hereīs some more stuff Iīve already flying around in some houserule drafts that I would love to see:

Upgrade rules for vehicle stats, esp. the Pilot rating: Well, Duh.
  • Also: Option to downgrade Drone stats for more Modifications (may include Initiative Dice?)
  • Also: Options to "hardwire" Autosofts into a Drone to safe valuable progamm slots.

Specialized Autosofts that donīt just mimic Skills, but offer more unique perks.
  • F.i. I was thinking about a kind of "Manhunt" Programm thatīs primed on certain targets via facial recognition and offers bonuses to spot, track and attack them. Adds a bit more dread and fits the "mindless killer machine" trope.
  • Other Softs might add a distinct Personality, enhanced Decision Marking, the ability to spot supernatural phenomena...
  • In principle, Rigger 5 already introduced stuff like the Smartlink and Grouping Autosofts. However, those fell flat because they didnīt really offer anything special and many players already assumed that drones have these options anyways...
Coatings/Armor Options: Colour-Swapping, Ruthenium Polymers and other Smart Materials, Elemental Resistance, Armor Upgrade (including hardened options?)...

Weapons: More Mounting options, including Mounts for smaller Firearms and Melee Weapons, Reload Mechanisms, Quick-change Mounts, retractable Mounts, better Articulation...
  • 5th Edition mostly got it right here. What didnīt make sense though, was that the manual control option made weapon mounts more costly, even when you removed remote control at the same time. IMO, the best solution would be to have either mount start with one default control option (manual, remote) and charge modders only for adding the other one as well.
  • Also, options for shared Control and Teamwork, especially in regards to shooting. Like one person/Autopilot steering and another one doing the shooting.
  • Also, a (balanced!) option for multi-weapon Drones to go full tilt by combining multiple Weapon Systems at once. Right now, multiple Mounts mostly attribute to weapon variety, but they donīt really increase the overall firepower. 
Personal Gear, Implants and WANs : Rigging is not just about moar DronesTm. Donīt forget about RCCs and Control Riggs.
  • Make it smaller: Interesting for more clandestine Riggers. Also, itīs kinda weird that you can implant decks, but not RCCs rn...
  • Make it bigger: Instead of making the RCC smaller, you could also dispense mobility/conceilability and fit more Programms/Slaves/Upgrades into the WAN. Could be interesting for "dude in the Van"-style riggers.
  • Make it sleazy: RCCs could use an option to at least ad a kind of "passive" sleaze Attribute to help against early Matrix detection and traces. Note: A Rigger supplement would also be a good place to clear up the lingering questions about RCC/Deck hybrid PANs.
  • Make it quicker: I.e. bonus IDs for Control Rig Implants.

Last but not least: Clear TF up how Edge works for autonomous drones!

(Kinda telling how one mentioned this so far, despite Edge being pitched as the major selling point if this Edition... ::))


« Last Edit: <11-24-20/1032:01> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Hobbes

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« Reply #6 on: <11-24-20/1239:49> »
Wouldn't Drones get an initiative bonus from being VR?  If the Rigger is Jumped in or remote piloting then use the Rigger Initiative, if the Drone is on it's own it's Pilot program is in VR and should get a couple dice.   

Finstersang

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« Reply #7 on: <11-24-20/1621:08> »
Wouldn't Drones get an initiative bonus from being VR?  If the Rigger is Jumped in or remote piloting then use the Rigger Initiative, if the Drone is on it's own it's Pilot program is in VR and should get a couple dice.

Thatīs currently the case: Drones get 3 ID, which is equivalent to Hot-Sim VR.

Problem is: Drones are virtual entities in the Matrix, but are they really "in VR" in the same way as a hacker or a Rigger? Keep in mind what the ID bonus in VR is actually meant to represent: Itīs the enhanced speed of the metahuman mind that can act and react faster because itīs no longer confined by the flesh. This is not really the case for Drones. Their "dog brain" is just virtual to begin with. Now, one could argue that it makes sense if this "dog-brain" of a drone just always acts faster than a standard metahuman, simply because of that. But there are some counterpoints. F.i. a "dog-brain" lacks the creativity of the metahuman mind and less efficient ways of processing its soroundings and decision-making. Also they still have a "body" with limitations. This might even out things, to a point were drones would act roughly as fast end efficient as a normal metahuman character. At the very least, itīs not "mandatory" to give drones more ID by default because they are "virtual". Itīs a design choice.

Thatīs why I would have preferred Drones if Drones just had the usual 1 ID (= 1 Major, 2 Minor Actions) by default and then options to add more ID through individual upgrades or through the RCC: That would have added more variance, tough upgrade choices and also more benefits to Jumping In: RAW, a jumped-in Rigger might even turn out slower if he uses Cold Sim.
« Last Edit: <11-24-20/1927:29> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #8 on: <11-24-20/2028:54> »
Drones get 3 dice so 1/4 Actions, which is fine to me, but I want them to be able to go higher, even if expensive. You can go higher with augmentations, drugs, magic, cyberjacks, but Pilot programs cannot ever be boosted further. That's why I'd want some way to make them even faster, for the one Rigger drone/vehicle that really needs to be able to handle itself.

Something else I want: Formalizing that all drones function by Grunt Group, some just are better at it.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #9 on: <11-25-20/1043:21> »
Drones get 3 dice so 1/4 Actions, which is fine to me, but I want them to be able to go higher, even if expensive. You can go higher with augmentations, drugs, magic, cyberjacks, but Pilot programs cannot ever be boosted further. That's why I'd want some way to make them even faster, for the one Rigger drone/vehicle that really needs to be able to handle itself.

Iīm mostly on the same page here: With the right mods, a Drone should be able to get to 4 or even 5 dice, along with the corresponding Actions. Iīm just critical of the fact that their default score is already so high, so that thereīs less room for such modifications (and Control Rigs!) to shine and less variation among drone speeds. Thatīs why I would have preferred a smaller default ID count for Drones, about 1-2.

That being said: "Nerfing" the default ID scores in a later supplement is certainly not a good idea, because it will rub players the wrong way. However, there are still ways to introduce "slower" drones: Besides Mods that add ID, there could also be options that subtract  them:

  • In 5th Edition, Riggers could also reduce attributes to make room for more Modifikations. That could be extendended to the number of IDs as well.
  • Some Drone Modells might also have this trait by default.
  • Likewise, cheap "Second-Hand"-Drones might come with variable flaws, including slower Autopilots

Side note: Stuff like this is an often overlooked design space. When you ask players what they want to see in the future, they will mostly list upgrades, but "voluntary" downgrades and restrictions in exchange for price reduction or other perks can be just as important to make things more interesting. In the same vein, Iīd really like to see a comeback of Geasa in a Magic Supplement.     

Something else I want: Formalizing that all drones function by Grunt Group, some just are better at it.

Good idea! The F-B Blackhawk already has this trait. Could be formalized as the effect of an Autosoft or Upgrade that the Blackhawk already has by default. 
« Last Edit: <11-26-20/1110:09> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"