NEWS

SRM build!

  • 21 Replies
  • 735 Views

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« on: <08-24-20/1024:27> »
Ladies and gentleman, I present to you, the one, the ONLY, SRM ruiner BIIIIIG HOOOOSSSSSS!!!!

Big Hoss

Priorities:
Attributes A (24 points)
Metatype B (Fomorian, 11 points)
Skills C (20 points)
Magic D (Adept, 1 Magic)
Resources E (8,000Y)

Attributes:
Body 9 (13)
Agility 7 (11)
Reaction 5 (9)
Strength 1
Willpower 6
Logic 2
Intuition 5
Charisma 1

Edge 4
Essence 4
Magic 4

Derived Attributes:
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 11
Memory: 7
Initiative/Actions: 14 + 5d6/1 Major, 5 Minor
Condition Monitor (P/S): 15/11
Defense Rating: 9
Defense Test: 14
Damage Resistance Test: 13
Movement: 10/15/+1

Skills:
Athletics 7 ( 8 ) (Throwing +2)
Perception 5 (Visual +2)
Piloting 1
Stealth 5 ( 6 ) (Sneaking +2)

Qualities:
Aptitude (Athletics), -12 Karma
Built Tough 2, free
Exceptional Attribute (Agility), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Body), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Willpower), -12 Karma
Magic Resistance, free
Thermographic Vision, free

Allergy (, Extreme), +20 Karma
Stolen Gear, +20 Karma

Adept Powers:
Improved Reflexes 4

Ware: (Essence -2, 133,760Y)
Bone Density Augmentation (Alphaware; Essence -0.96, 26,400Y)
Muscle Toner 4 (Used; Essence -0.88, 70,400Y)
Reflex Recorder (Athletics) (Alphaware; Essence -0.08, 18,480Y)
Reflex Recorder (Stealth) (Alphaware; Essence -0.08, 18,480Y)

Gear:
Stuff n' things, it don't really matter none, we got us a SHIT TON of GRENADES!

Armor:
None; goin' first and gettin' yas with GRENADES is all the defense I need!

Weapons: (LOTS)
GRENADES! All them there GRENADES!

Combat:
Fragmentation Grenades [DV 16P/12P/8P, Blast 20m, 10/9/4/-/-]; 21 dice to hit
Krime Stinger Grenades [DV 16S/12S/8S, Blast 20m, 10/9/4/-/-]; 21 dice to hit

Karma:
+45 Base (Fomorian's lose 5)
+40 Negative Qualities

-48 Positive Qualities
-20 Nuyen
-10 Logic 2
-5 Piloting 1

2 remaining

Build Features:
GRENADES! Two of 'em! Per turn!!! What else you need, bois!?

Advancement Path:
LOL GRENADES! And some of that there Combat Sense from the top shelf!

Personality:
TEXAS!
GRENADES!
STEREOTYPES!
MURICA!

Say, you bois like Texas Holdem? . . .

(Satire aside, this a perfect example of why grenades are a problem. Slap him in some security armor, and you're looking at DR 19 w/incoming DV -1 for actual defense, and that is with minimal optimization.)
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1817:59> by FastJack »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Sir Ludwig

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 100
« Reply #1 on: <08-24-20/1047:44> »
Lormyr,

If I hadn't been reading the other thread, I would have missed some of the humor/satire.  However you have summed it up nicely, as "MURICA!"

Best,
SL
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1106:11> by FastJack »
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #2 on: <08-24-20/1056:49> »
I may have sneaked in a few jabs at Mikey, but I appreciate you looking at it through the lens intended!
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1106:21> by FastJack »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

markelphoenix

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
« Reply #3 on: <08-24-20/1101:35> »
I get the satire and humor. I don't get your campaign against explosives/grenades.

Yes, they're one of the most powerful if not the most powerful destructive options in the game, if taking into consideration as solely a pure combat sim with no other considerations.

I think this becomes a problem depending on the table, and only if people decide to make it a problem.

1) GM vs Player Mindset
  - Problem: GM decides to kill players with grenades by setting up a no escape scenario that can't realistically be accounted for. Hides behind, "Well, that's grenades"
  - Solution: Don't be a dick GM
2) Player Murder Hobo Destroyer of All Things
  - Grenades blow up drones, cars, infrastructure, vending machines, the nearby pedestrians, and the 1 ganger with a SMG that the player cared about killing
  - Solution: Reiterate that it's a living world. That there is a setting, where in many cases, property damage is weighed > most metahuman lives by the corp (assuming you're geeking entry level
    wageslaves and they can simply PR magic any bad press around it, "Them evil shadowrunners!!!"). By the player defaulting to grenades, inform them that in setting, they or their team mates would have
    sufficient knowledge to understand that it's creating an escalation of threat, where the Corps cannot continue to ignore property and reputation loss due to how noisy and expensive the damage from the
    constant AOE dmg has been. If they switch to stun grenades, that progress! Now they're thinking more in line with avoiding incurring long term wrath of the big corps due to hurting the bottom line pass
    what it would cost to geek their hoops.

This is just 2 simple  scenarios, I can think of more, but got to get back to work. It makes sense that grenades and missiles would be lethal. Question is, does the application of them in the run make sense? Z-Zone, hunting a wild pack of feral ghouls? Makes sense, don't know why a Corp would care. In a AAA high security compound....well, that's going to lead to a bad time, chummer.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1106:31> by FastJack »

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #4 on: <08-24-20/1107:32> »
I just prefer good game balance and strongly dislike poor game balance. That is pretty much what it boils down too, and that perspective hardly stops with this particular game or edition. SR6 grenades are just a particularly unbalanced mechanic, even compared to bad mechanics in other systems.

I appreciate that you and others look at it differently, and that is perfectly fine. You guys should definitely play in the manner which you find most enjoyable.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1106:42> by FastJack »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Sir Ludwig

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 100
« Reply #5 on: <08-24-20/1157:45> »
I got both sides, but as you said "You guys should definitely play in the manner which you find most enjoyable".  I only play/run groups and that is how I run/play games.  However, learning that SRM is a different animal.  I had figured I would play at DragonCon in a few weeks...but COVID stopped that.

Best,
SR
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1106:50> by FastJack »
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2887
« Reply #6 on: <08-24-20/1230:16> »
I get the satire and humor. I don't get your campaign against explosives/grenades.

Yes, they're one of the most powerful if not the most powerful destructive options in the game, if taking into consideration as solely a pure combat sim with no other considerations.

I think this becomes a problem depending on the table, and only if people decide to make it a problem.

1) GM vs Player Mindset
  - Problem: GM decides to kill players with grenades by setting up a no escape scenario that can't realistically be accounted for. Hides behind, "Well, that's grenades"
  - Solution: Don't be a dick GM
2) Player Murder Hobo Destroyer of All Things
  - Grenades blow up drones, cars, infrastructure, vending machines, the nearby pedestrians, and the 1 ganger with a SMG that the player cared about killing
  - Solution: Reiterate that it's a living world. That there is a setting, where in many cases, property damage is weighed > most metahuman lives by the corp (assuming you're geeking entry level
    wageslaves and they can simply PR magic any bad press around it, "Them evil shadowrunners!!!"). By the player defaulting to grenades, inform them that in setting, they or their team mates would have
    sufficient knowledge to understand that it's creating an escalation of threat, where the Corps cannot continue to ignore property and reputation loss due to how noisy and expensive the damage from the
    constant AOE dmg has been. If they switch to stun grenades, that progress! Now they're thinking more in line with avoiding incurring long term wrath of the big corps due to hurting the bottom line pass
    what it would cost to geek their hoops.

This is just 2 simple  scenarios, I can think of more, but got to get back to work. It makes sense that grenades and missiles would be lethal. Question is, does the application of them in the run make sense? Z-Zone, hunting a wild pack of feral ghouls? Makes sense, don't know why a Corp would care. In a AAA high security compound....well, that's going to lead to a bad time, chummer.

Given Krime Stingers and Pepper Punch grenades are cheap and available, there are multiple non-lethal and less property damaging options.  16S will do the job just fine.  And Pepper Punch Grenades are no louder / messier than gunfire. 

Grenades need a nerfin'.  Missions or Home games.  *shrug* 
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1106:59> by FastJack »

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 803
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #7 on: <08-24-20/1237:19> »
Grenades need a nerfin'.  Missions or Home games.  *shrug*
^^this^^

If you went back in time two years and posted "I come from the future, I have SR6e, guess what? They halved all the damage codes and armour but left grenades and spirit ItNW at the old values" then you'd be laughed off the internet.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1107:08> by FastJack »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 4030
« Reply #8 on: <08-24-20/1240:46> »
Minor correction: the hardened armor benefit of ItNW was halved from Fx2 in 5e to F this time.

But could it stand being halved again?  Yeah, probably....
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1107:15> by FastJack »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #9 on: <08-24-20/1329:45> »
If I was SR king, I'd do the following:

- Grenades get a defense test, just like everything else. Feel free to give that test a -4 penalty though, unless action economy is used in addition.
- Radius halved to 10m.
- Flat DV of 8P across that 10m.

That leaves them plenty strong but not lol auto die.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1107:22> by FastJack »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
« Reply #10 on: <08-24-20/1913:34> »
Minor correction: the hardened armor benefit of ItNW was halved from Fx2 in 5e to F this time.

But could it stand being halved again?  Yeah, probably....

The auto soak amount is the same. Itnw was forcex2 but they auto soaked force. The x2 was their normal armor soak value And the value you needed to beat to have a chance to do any damage. Though AP existed as well.

But in SR6 you will summon spirits with a lower force. But dmg DVs are less. Itís overall a bit of a wash in that regard.

Though for me Iím fine with them being stupid hard to kill. Iím not fine with them being super great at killing. Iíd be fine with tanks that were basically pr2 otherwise.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1107:30> by FastJack »

Leith

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 103
« Reply #11 on: <08-24-20/2320:18> »
If I was SR king, I'd do the following:

- Grenades get a defense test, just like everything else. Feel free to give that test a -4 penalty though, unless action economy is used in addition.
- Radius halved to 10m.
- Flat DV of 8P across that 10m.

That leaves them plenty strong but not lol auto die.

If you pass the defense test what happens? This feels a bit like Starfinder grenades which are thoroughly underwhelming and still would be slightly broken were it not for the comparative cost of ammo.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1107:36> by FastJack »

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 803
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #12 on: <08-25-20/0449:17> »
If you pass the defense test what happens?
(This answer goes for 5e as well as 6e) Whenever I get around to houseruling grenades, I think I'd remove the scatter rules entirely. Defender rolls a normal defence test, gets to dive away from ground zero by some distance based on their hits. You need some bespoke mechanic here to trade off attacker and defender hits, that's the bit I'm fuzzy on; it wouldn't just be "net hits = distance moved" or grenades end up super lethal again.

Maybe as simple as: attacker hits are discarded as long as they hit a threshold (probably just 1 hit) to get the grenade on target. Then defender's hits (not net hits) = 1m moved away per hit. Then tune the grenade falloff in DV over distance to make that work.

Works better for theatre of the mind play (where the scatter rules just become pure "GM fiat"). Isn't any more annoying to resolve than the RAW scatter rules, I think. I'd also do this for physical indirect AoE combat spells.

Also: I can't recall the statlines off-hand, but I vaguely recall thinking there might be room to draw a larger distinction between HE grenades (make them smaller area but give them more AP) and frag grenades (larger area / crappy AP.)

It's a bit gamey but I wouldn't mind grenades to end up in a similar place to XCOM: as much used for flushing people out and destroying cover as they are for actually damaging people. Might require some handwaving around "well, SR armour is super effective, you see" to explain why they aren't quite as lethal as you'd think they'd be. To be fair, SR armour really is super effective, they have things that look and feel like clothing that can shrug off heavy pistol rounds.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1107:45> by FastJack »

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 803
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #13 on: <08-25-20/0452:15> »
Though for me Iím fine with them being stupid hard to kill. Iím not fine with them being super great at killing. Iíd be fine with tanks that were basically pr2 otherwise.
I've experimented with houseruling spirits all kinds of ways, never found anything I'm in love with. My current iteration is that all spirits get F*2 normal armour, but ItNW isn't automatic; it's moved to the Optional Powers list and takes up two powers. This means summoner has to pick between ItNW and the more dangerous optional powers, they can't have both (unless they're working at F9).
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1107:52> by FastJack »

Leith

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 103
« Reply #14 on: <08-25-20/0809:29> »
(This answer goes for 5e as well as 6e) Whenever I get around to houseruling grenades, I think I'd remove the scatter rules entirely. Defender rolls a normal defence test, gets to dive away from ground zero by some distance based on their hits. You need some bespoke mechanic here to trade off attacker and defender hits, that's the bit I'm fuzzy on; it wouldn't just be "net hits = distance moved" or grenades end up super lethal again.

Maybe as simple as: attacker hits are discarded as long as they hit a threshold (probably just 1 hit) to get the grenade on target. Then defender's hits (not net hits) = 1m moved away per hit. Then tune the grenade falloff in DV over distance to make that work.

Works better for theatre of the mind play (where the scatter rules just become pure "GM fiat"). Isn't any more annoying to resolve than the RAW scatter rules, I think. I'd also do this for physical indirect AoE combat spells.

Also: I can't recall the statlines off-hand, but I vaguely recall thinking there might be room to draw a larger distinction between HE grenades (make them smaller area but give them more AP) and frag grenades (larger area / crappy AP.)

This doesn't sound all that different from how it works now. I forget how 5e worked...

It's a bit gamey but I wouldn't mind grenades to end up in a similar place to XCOM: as much used for flushing people out and destroying cover as they are for actually damaging people. Might require some handwaving around "well, SR armour is super effective, you see" to explain why they aren't quite as lethal as you'd think they'd be. To be fair, SR armour really is super effective, they have things that look and feel like clothing that can shrug off heavy pistol rounds.

Smaller grenades. SR grenades already seem to have a bigger lethal range/radius than the kind used by the US military (or so the internet tells me). You just need to justify why your grenades are designed to make smaller boom.
« Last Edit: <08-25-20/1108:05> by FastJack »