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SR6 Mana Barriers

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markelphoenix

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« Reply #30 on: <08-24-20/1355:27> »
    • Mana barrier spells don't "block" spells from being cast through them, they act as "Boosted Defense" against spells being cast through them (on the plane they were cast).

    Mana barriers page 161 first sentence:
    Quote
    Mana barriers are magical walls that impede or block magic and astral forms.

    And for the physical plane version
    Quote
    Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-natured entities, spirits, and active foci.

    Reads to me that in either version, the Mana Barrier spell impedes or blocks Mana spells. The Astral version doesn't impede or block Physical spells.

    the problem comes with the short hand at end of the Astral Mana Barrier description...
    Quote
    Astral mana barriers are resistant to
    astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
    same manner as physical mana barriers.

    Neither block spells. Both add either a Defense Pool bonus = to the rating of the barrier, or if no defense test, Oppose Test of Barrier Rating x 2.

    Only difference I see is what they apply to. Seems that Mana Spells are affected by Astral Mana Barrier and Physical Spells are affected by Physical Mana Barriers.

    Separately, an astrally perceiving mage would slam into an Astral or Physical Mana Barrier, requiring the test to force his way through it, where as if he was not astrally perceiving, he would simply walk on through.

    Similarly, a spirit, un-manifested, would need to fight through the barrier (destroy it) or have his magician make the contested challenge allowing the magician to bring along spirits. Alternatively, the spirit could just fly around it, assuming that it wasn't cast in the shape of a  closed shape, such as sphere, around the unmanifested spirit.

    This brings up an interesting question. Are materialized spirits Dual Natured? If so, then they are also blocked by Astral Mana Barrier when materialized, else, it would require a Physical Mana Barrier to block them from moving through. Trying to find a definitive section of book that states whether spirits are explicitly Dual Natured in 6e.

    I do think it is sloppy the way they phrased it at the bottom of Astral Barrier.[/list]
    « Last Edit: <08-24-20/1359:10> by markelphoenix »

    markelphoenix

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    « Reply #31 on: <08-24-20/1356:23> »
    Both = the mana barrier protect against enemy line of sight spells being cast on both astral and physical plane (but it does not protect against bullets).

    Either = they only protect against enemy line of sight spells being cast on either astral or physical (but it does not protect against bullets).


    Dual Natured = have an actual form or body on both the astral plane and the physical plane (protect against bullets).


    SR6 p. 145 Circle of Protection
    The circle acts as a combination of the Physical Barrier and Mana Barrier spells...The mana barrier is dual-natured.

    Help me out one where it discusses protecting against bullets?

    That is true for Circle of Protection, but not Ward or Magician Lodge Dual Natured Barrier

    Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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    « Reply #32 on: <08-24-20/1408:05> »
    ...
    This brings up an interesting question. Are materialized spirits Dual Natured? If so, then they are also blocked by Astral Mana Barrier when materialized, else, it would require a Physical Mana Barrier to block them from moving through. Trying to find a definitive section of book that states whether spirits are explicitly Dual Natured in 6e.

    Short answer:  While Materialized... Yes they are.

    Longer answer:  This is one of the MANY things that should/could be better detailed about the relationship between Physical and Astral planes in 6e.
    But between Spirits being "natively" Astral entities, and basically everything that's in both planes at once is considered Dual Natured (see Astral Perception this time around... you're Dual Natured now for the duration instead of having special rules defining state).  Spirits don't ever stop being on the Astral plane because there's no converse to Astral Projection. (that is: an astral entity can't "project" a physical body to move around on the Physical Plane independently of the Astral Form). So when they "cross over" and materialize on the Physical Plane, they must be on both.  And the only rule that addresses that concept in this edition is Dual Natured.
    RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

    Xenon

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    « Reply #33 on: <08-24-20/1423:07> »
    Only difference I see is what they apply to. Seems that Mana Spells are affected by Astral Mana Barrier and Physical Spells are affected by Physical Mana Barriers.
    They talk about spells on the physical plane and spells on the astral plane ("astral spells" not "mana spells").
    Nowhere do they talk about affecting mana spells and physical spells differently...


    Separately, an astrally perceiving mage would slam into an Astral or Physical Mana Barrier, requiring the test to force his way through it, where as if he was not astrally perceiving, he would simply walk on through.
    Agreed.


    Are materialized spirits Dual Natured?
    Yes.

    Spirits always have an Astral Form.
    When they Materialize they also, in addition to their Astral Form, gain a Physical Body.
    You could say that Materialization is for an astral entity what astral perception is for a physical entity.


    then they are also blocked by Astral Mana Barrier when materialized
    Yes.

    (together with all other magical critters that can sense the astral plane while at the same time having a physical body; such as vampires, ghouls, barghests, hellhounds, dragons, ...)


    Trying to find a definitive section of book that states whether spirits are explicitly Dual Natured in 6e.
    There is no mentioning about spirits (or other wholly astral entities) not keeping their astral form when they use their materialization power.

    Having said that, this clarifying (but perhaps redundant?) line from SR5 was removed in SR6:

    SR5 p. 301 Spirit Basics
    The spirit is dual-natured while it’s materialized
    « Last Edit: <08-24-20/1426:07> by Xenon »

    markelphoenix

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    « Reply #34 on: <08-24-20/1427:37> »
    Only difference I see is what they apply to. Seems that Mana Spells are affected by Astral Mana Barrier and Physical Spells are affected by Physical Mana Barriers.
    They talk about spells on the physical plane and spells on the astral plane ("astral spells" not "mana spells").
    Nowhere do they talk about affecting mana spells and physical spells differently...


    Separately, an astrally perceiving mage would slam into an Astral or Physical Mana Barrier, requiring the test to force his way through it, where as if he was not astrally perceiving, he would simply walk on through.
    Agreed.


    Are materialized spirits Dual Natured?
    Yes.

    Spirits always have an Astral Form.
    When they Materialize they also, in addition to their Astral Form, gain a Physical Body.
    You could say that Materialization is for an astral entity what astral perception is for a physical entity.


    then they are also blocked by Astral Mana Barrier when materialized
    Yes.

    (together with all other magical critters that can sense the astral plane while at the same time having a physical body; such as vampires, ghouls, barghests, hellhounds, dragons, ...)


    Trying to find a definitive section of book that states whether spirits are explicitly Dual Natured in 6e.
    There is no mentioning about spirits (or other wholly astral entities) not keeping their astral form when they use their materialization power.

    Having said that, this clarifying (but perhaps redundant?) line from SR5 was removed in SR6:

    SR5 p. 301 Spirit Basics
    The spirit is dual-natured while it’s materialized

    Then why differentiate between Astral Spells vs Spells? This seems like bad RAW vs RAI

    Xenon

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    « Reply #35 on: <08-24-20/1459:42> »
    Then why differentiate between Astral Spells vs Spells?
    What do you mean?


    Spells in Shadowrun always only affect either the physical plane or the astral plane.

    If you cast a manaball on the physical plane then it will damage targets in the area of effect that are on the physical plane.

    If you cast the same manaball spell but on the astral plane then it will damage targets in the area of effect that are on the astral plane.

    No matter if you cast it on the physical plane or the astral plane will it damage physical objects (to do that you need to cast the powerball spell)



    Why would the mana barrier spell be any different...?

    If you cast it on the physical plane then it add defense dice against spells on the physical plane.

    If you cast it on the astral plane then it add defensive dice against spells on the astral plane.

    No matter if you cast it on the physical plane or the astral plane will it impede physical objects (to do that you need to cast the physical barrier spell)



    This seems like bad RAW vs RAI
    There is overall very little strict RAW in this edition..... :-/

    Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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    « Reply #36 on: <08-24-20/1508:56> »
    A point of potential obfuscation:

    While spells can only affect one plane or the other, spells are always on the astral because they have astral forms.  And will therefore always BE AFFECTED by purely astral phenomena.

    So when a manabolt is cast by a magician who is solely on the physical plane (not using astral perception) on a target that is also not using astral perception, that manabolt is still impeded by an astral mana barrier between the two physical points A (caster) and B (target).
    « Last Edit: <08-24-20/1512:42> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
    RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

    Xenon

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    « Reply #37 on: <08-24-20/1511:52> »
    Help me out one where it discusses protecting against bullets?

    That is true for Circle of Protection, but not Ward or Magician Lodge Dual Natured Barrier
    It says "Both" in the table you quoted as in that the spell defend against spells on "both" the astral plane and the physical plane.

    It does "not" say "Both" as in "dual natured" (as you wrote).
    "Dual natured" is something else.
    "Dual natured" means that you have an actual tangible physical body (that you can shoot at).

    Mana barriers are typically not "dual natured" (they typically only have an actual astral form, not also an actual physical body).
    The only exception is Circle of Protection.

    Circle of Protection act as a mana barrier on "both" the astral plane and the physical plane (same as a Ward and a Magical Lodge)
    But (unlike the others) it also act as a "physical barrier" (it have an actual physical body, it can stop bullets).
    Hence Circle of Protection is actually "dual natured" (while the others are not).

    Xenon

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    « Reply #38 on: <08-24-20/1512:09> »
    A point of potential obfuscation:

    While spells can only affect one plane or the other, spells are always on the astral because they have astral forms.  And will therefore always BE AFFECTED by purely astral phenomena.
    Yes. Well. Depend on what you mean.

    A line of sight spell will not gain an actual astral form at the location of the magician and then "travel" from the magician all the way to the target (via reflective surfaces and optical cables). Smashing into various astral forms on the way.

    If there is a mana barrier on the physical plane (like a Ward, Magical Lodge or Circle of Protection that is active on both planes or a mana barrier spell cast on the physical plane) then it will act as defense dice against the spellcasting test.

    The magician need line of sight to its target. Then cast the spell. And then the spell take effect at the target. It will not risk hitting astral forms on the astral plane "on the way".

    But if you sustain an invisibility spell on the street samurai then the spell will have an actual astral form tied to the living aura of the street samurai. If the street samurai unknowingly walk into a bar that is currently being protected by a magician on the astral plane sustaining a mana barrier spell then the astral form of the invisibility spell cause astral intersection with the astral mana barrier spell and one of them (or both) will become disrupted. The mana barrier act as a solid barrier for the sustained invisibility spell.


    So when a manabolt is cast by a magician who is solely on the physical plane (not using astral perception) on a target that is also not using astral perception, that manabolt is impeded by an astral mana barrier between the two physical points A (caster) and B (target).
    No, it isn't.

    It will be impeded by a mana barrier on the physical plane or a ward / circle of protection / magical lodge that affect both astral and physical at the same time.

    But the spellcasting test will not be affected by a mana barrier spell that only exists on the astral plane....
    A mana barrier spell that only exist on the astral plane will affect astral spells.


    Edit: Or what do you think they mean when you read this:

    SR6 p. 161 Mana Barriers
    Astral mana barriers are resistant to astral spells
    « Last Edit: <08-24-20/1526:34> by Xenon »

    Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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    « Reply #39 on: <08-24-20/1514:50> »
    A point of potential obfuscation:

    While spells can only affect one plane or the other, spells are always on the astral because they have astral forms.  And will therefore always BE AFFECTED by purely astral phenomena.

    So when a manabolt is cast by a magician who is solely on the physical plane (not using astral perception) on a target that is also not using astral perception, that manabolt is impeded by an astral mana barrier between the two physical points A (caster) and B (target).
    No, it isn't.

    So long as they have Astral Forms, yes they are.  There's no allowance given for barriers to check whether an astral form is "targeting" something on the physical plane.  So therefore it can't be allowing astral forms targeting a physical plane construct to pass through unimpeded.

    RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

    markelphoenix

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    « Reply #40 on: <08-24-20/1515:33> »
    only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.

    markelphoenix

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    « Reply #41 on: <08-24-20/1517:04> »
    Mana barriers on the physical plane are invis-ible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, du-al-natured entities, spirits, and active foci. Any-body trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the rating of the barrier, which is added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcast-ing test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of the barrier x 2).

    Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, haz-ily opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral move-ment and impose a visual penalty equal to the bar-rier’s Force. Astral mana barriers are resistant to astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the same manner as physical mana barriers.

    Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both planes simultaneously, and they act like mana bar-riers on both planes at once.
    « Last Edit: <08-24-20/1521:45> by markelphoenix »

    markelphoenix

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    « Reply #42 on: <08-24-20/1520:19> »
    only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.

    Physical Mana barrier: stops everything living/magic (subject to exceptions of course, like microbes) passing thru on the physical plane.  Astral forms with no physical plane component can pass through unimpeded.

    Astral Mana barrier: stops all astral forms from passing through but does not impede life on the physical plane.  and by implication, does not stop magic that lacks an astral form (many passive adept powers, for example)

    Do you have a CRB page number to support Physical Mana Barriers blocking all living things?

    Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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    « Reply #43 on: <08-24-20/1524:06> »
    only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.

    Physical Mana barrier: stops everything living/magic (subject to exceptions of course, like microbes) passing thru on the physical plane.  Astral forms with no physical plane component can pass through unimpeded.

    Astral Mana barrier: stops all astral forms from passing through but does not impede life on the physical plane.  and by implication, does not stop magic that lacks an astral form (many passive adept powers, for example)

    Do you have a CRB page number to support Physical Mana Barriers blocking all living things?

    Nope. I'm bringing in old edition baggage.

    The (not really) official answer is mana barrier rules are a ghost-damned mess.  I nuked my post since it was demonstrably incorrect.
    RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

    Xenon

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    « Reply #44 on: <08-24-20/1537:19> »
    So long as they have Astral Forms, yes they are.  There's no allowance given for barriers to check whether an astral form is "targeting" something on the physical plane.  So therefore it can't be allowing astral forms targeting a physical plane construct to pass through unimpeded.
    You are assuming that a mana spell will gain an astral form and "travel" from your location to the target location?

    But if spells acted like that then they would also hit anything in the astral plane along the way (like spirits and projecting magicians etc).

    And if there was an astral mana barrier in the way it would slam into that as well. Causing astral intersection (rather than messing with the magicians spellcasting test).


    I am assuming that you need to establish line of sight. Then you cast the spell and the mana will manifest directly at the target location. But if there is a mana barrier in the way (on the plane you are currently on, or on both plane which is more typical when discussing ward rituals) then it is much harder having the mana manifesting at the target. The ward will 'mess with your aim', if you will. The spell might fizzle or if doesn't it will at probably at least be weaker than intended.

    There is no risk of astral intersection here. There is no risk of the barrier collapsing. It act more like spell defense than anything else...

    And you will also not be affected if there happen to be astral forms on the astral plane between you and the target.
    « Last Edit: <08-24-20/1540:36> by Xenon »