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SR6 Mana Barriers

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markelphoenix

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« on: <08-21-20/1401:08> »
Pg. 162 CRB
Quote
and living beings are knocked unconscious
with a full Stun Condition Monitor. In cases of a
tie, everything disrupts.

So, what living beings is it talking about? I assume only Dual Natured or Astral Projecting indivudlas given:
For Physical Mana Barriers
Quote
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-
natured entities, spirits, and active foci
For Astral Mana Barriers
Quote
Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.

Is there another way of reading this? A mage is not Dual Natured unless they're Astraly Perceiving, so if not Astraly Perceiving, they would be able to just walk through barrier, correct? If they failed their check, their spells would just be disrupted, foci turned off, and any spirits they had could not follow them through, but could move 'around' the barrier.

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <08-21-20/1433:08> »
Yes you are correct.

Mana barriers only affect entities that have a true tangible astral form
 
This include wholly astral subjects (such as spirits, projecting magicians, manifesting magician or spirit etc)
Dual natured subjects (such as vampires, ghouls, materialized spirits, magicians using astral perception)
Active magic (sustained and quickened spells, preparations, activated foci etc)


It means that a magician (or materialized spirit) that is using astral projection while riding an elevator through a mana barrier might get knocked unconscious.

A magician that is not using astral perception while riding an elevator through a mana barrier will never be knocked unconscious.

Riding elevators while using astral perception is dangerous ;-)
You might want to use astral projection to scout the elevator shaft before you do that....

But a magician that is not using astral perception or projection will also be unaware of the mana barrier. Which mean that if he got sustained (or quickened) spells (or active foci or preparations or any other active magic) they will cause astral intersection with the mana barrier as he move through the barrier - and either the barrier will collapse of the spell will end. Or both the barrier will collapse and the spell will end. Depending on the astral intersection test.

To sneak your spells through a barrier you normally need to first be aware of its existence (typically by using astral perception or projection).
« Last Edit: <08-21-20/1446:36> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <08-21-20/1543:53> »
Yep, mundanes probably won't even realize when they walk thru a mana barrier.

Which can be lulzy if they paid to have a spell quickened on them.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #3 on: <08-21-20/1551:09> »
elf shamans might hulk smash the barrier while riding through when astrally perceiving. 13 chr+6 magic, you have almost even odds against a force 10 barrier.

I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?.  I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea. I think i only have the first errata where ward isn't mentioned. I guess you could quicken the spell which starts out at a high force or someone could be sustaining it right as your elevator moved through it.(me as a GM with a astral security mage to tank all their focuses, though it also tanks preparations which are bad enough as is i kind of feel bad tanking them for a teams alchemist)

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #4 on: <08-21-20/1556:29> »
I assume a mage with foci, spells up who is astrally perceiving all the astral objects hit simultaneous so even if the elf shaman hulk smashes through their spells/focusses may go down?  Maybe if they knew it was coming they could astrally attack it from astral perception before their body hits.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #5 on: <08-21-20/1605:32> »
Also, the spell Mana Barrier, is it Astral, Physical, or Dual? I assume Dual, but it isn't explicitly stated in the spell description.

The Mana Barrier table implies you have to choose:
Quote
mana barriers table
MANA BARRIER ASTRAL OR PHYSICAL REFERENCE
Circle of Protection
ritual
Both p. 144
Magical lodge Both p. 129
Mana Barrier spell Either p. 141
Ward ritual Both p. 145

Also, if one choose Astral mana barrier, I assume it has no effect on Physical spells? Like wise, if one choose a Physical Mana Barrier, I assume it has no affect on Astral/Mental spells? Is that correct?

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #6 on: <08-21-20/1624:27> »
I don't know, I always assumed physical spells have a astral presence, they just don't work there as their is nothing physical fro them to interact with, but that could be edition blindness getting me again.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <08-21-20/1630:14> »
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?.  I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...

Post errata, wards are Force = Ritual Leader's Magic + net hits on the ritual.  So F6+ wards should be rather common, with "tweens" level Force still within the realm of reason.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #8 on: <08-21-20/1641:18> »
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?.  I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...

Post errata, wards are Force = Ritual Leader's Magic + net hits on the ritual.  So F6+ wards should be rather common, with "tweens" level Force still within the realm of reason.

Thanks. My quick google i think got a early errata that didn't have it fixed or my eyes skipped over the fix. With a threshold of 6, you'd likely need a team of fairly maximized ritual casters to get to the teens with edge maybe not so absurd of group so high security facilities etc.  I wonder what the default assumption is on edge use for NPCs is in the world building for things like wards is.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #9 on: <08-21-20/1642:03> »
I don't know, I always assumed physical spells have a astral presence, they just don't work there as their is nothing physical fro them to interact with, but that could be edition blindness getting me again.

Yeah, I don't know if they straight out say it this edition. Under spell types, we get:
Quote
Type: This is either M (for mana) or P (for
physical). Mana spells interact solely with the
astral plane; they may affect living beings, as living
beings have an astral component, but they
have no effect on nonliving, non-astral entities.
Physical spells only affect the physical realm.

Only supporting evidence I can find is that Physical Mana Barrier states they act as a solid barrier to spells, where as Mana barriers on astral plane are resistant to astral spells in the same way that physical barriers are:
Quote

Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible
(except to astral perception), but they act as
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-
natured entities, spirits, and active foci. Anybody
trying to cast a spell through a barrier must
contend with the rating of the barrier, which is
added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t
normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting
test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of
the barrier x 2).
Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily
opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement
and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s
Force. Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both
planes simultaneously, and they act like mana barriers
on both planes at once.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #10 on: <08-21-20/1643:55> »
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?.  I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...

Post errata, wards are Force = Ritual Leader's Magic + net hits on the ritual.  So F6+ wards should be rather common, with "tweens" level Force still within the realm of reason.

Thanks. My quick google i think got a early errata that didn't have it fixed or my eyes skipped over the fix. With a threshold of 6, you'd likely need a team of fairly maximized ritual casters to get to the teens with edge maybe not so absurd of group so high security facilities etc.  I wonder what the default assumption is on edge use for NPCs is in the world building for things like wards is.

I have that same question. When a player encounters a NPC, what is a reasonable way to determine if they've used edge that day? What's a reasonable rule of thumb? If you're coming to the end of a security details shift, would that imply they probably would be less 'fresh', reflected in a lower current edge pool? My mind spins on stuff like that.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #11 on: <08-21-20/1646:58> »
The more I read it, the more annoyed I get that they didn't just make them all dual natured.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <08-21-20/1658:22> »
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?.  I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...

Post errata, wards are Force = Ritual Leader's Magic + net hits on the ritual.  So F6+ wards should be rather common, with "tweens" level Force still within the realm of reason.

Thanks. My quick google i think got a early errata that didn't have it fixed or my eyes skipped over the fix. With a threshold of 6, you'd likely need a team of fairly maximized ritual casters to get to the teens with edge maybe not so absurd of group so high security facilities etc.  I wonder what the default assumption is on edge use for NPCs is in the world building for things like wards is.

I have that same question. When a player encounters a NPC, what is a reasonable way to determine if they've used edge that day? What's a reasonable rule of thumb? If you're coming to the end of a security details shift, would that imply they probably would be less 'fresh', reflected in a lower current edge pool? My mind spins on stuff like that.

Questions about Edge and NPCs are often non-sequiturs, as NPCs don't follow the same rules as PCs.  For example, NPCs suffer wound penalties every 2 boxes rather than every 3... NPCs only have one gestalt Condition Monitor rather than separate ones for Physical and Stun damage.. and most NPCs just have Edge = Professional Rating.  Doesn't matter how much they used "earlier in the day", as of the moment the PCs meet them, they have full Edge = Professional Rating. And of course the biggie: PCs each get their own Edge pool while NPCs share one among their number.

Prime Runners are the exception... those are NPCs who follow the same rules as PCs.  But those are your "named NPCs" and accordingly they're supposed to be rare and important characters.  The nameless wagemage who did the facility's wards is almost assuredly NOT a Prime Runner.  But even in the case of Edge... see Edge and Prime Runners (pg. 211) as they still get their own rules for that.
« Last Edit: <08-21-20/1711:54> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #13 on: <08-21-20/1701:23> »
I don't know, I always assumed physical spells have a astral presence, they just don't work there as their is nothing physical fro them to interact with, but that could be edition blindness getting me again.

Yeah, I don't know if they straight out say it this edition. Under spell types, we get:
Quote
Type: This is either M (for mana) or P (for
physical). Mana spells interact solely with the
astral plane; they may affect living beings, as living
beings have an astral component, but they
have no effect on nonliving, non-astral entities.
Physical spells only affect the physical realm.

Only supporting evidence I can find is that Physical Mana Barrier states they act as a solid barrier to spells, where as Mana barriers on astral plane are resistant to astral spells in the same way that physical barriers are:
Quote

Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible
(except to astral perception), but they act as
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-
natured entities, spirits, and active foci. Anybody
trying to cast a spell through a barrier must
contend with the rating of the barrier, which is
added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t
normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting
test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of
the barrier x 2).
Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily
opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement
and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s
Force. Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both
planes simultaneously, and they act like mana barriers
on both planes at once.

It does specify a item normally blocked is what gets the test, so maybe a physical spell would go right through as its not normally blocked by a purely astral barrier, but if it was in a focus it would go down as the focus is blocked. A benefit of just sustaining the spell i guess. It may be splitting hairs but there may be a difference between sustaining a spell and walking through and casting a spell through. like casting mana bolt a purely astral barrier does nothing to, but a sustained spell has a astral presence and might be stopped. The next section on getting around mana barriers does not specify what sustained spells need to but it could just assume you know that from the previous section.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #14 on: <08-21-20/1720:52> »
I don't know, I always assumed physical spells have a astral presence, they just don't work there as their is nothing physical fro them to interact with, but that could be edition blindness getting me again.

Yeah, I don't know if they straight out say it this edition. Under spell types, we get:
Quote
Type: This is either M (for mana) or P (for
physical). Mana spells interact solely with the
astral plane; they may affect living beings, as living
beings have an astral component, but they
have no effect on nonliving, non-astral entities.
Physical spells only affect the physical realm.

Only supporting evidence I can find is that Physical Mana Barrier states they act as a solid barrier to spells, where as Mana barriers on astral plane are resistant to astral spells in the same way that physical barriers are:
Quote

Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible
(except to astral perception), but they act as
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-
natured entities, spirits, and active foci. Anybody
trying to cast a spell through a barrier must
contend with the rating of the barrier, which is
added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t
normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting
test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of
the barrier x 2).
Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily
opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement
and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s
Force. Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both
planes simultaneously, and they act like mana barriers
on both planes at once.

It does specify a item normally blocked is what gets the test, so maybe a physical spell would go right through as its not normally blocked by a purely astral barrier, but if it was in a focus it would go down as the focus is blocked. A benefit of just sustaining the spell i guess. It may be splitting hairs but there may be a difference between sustaining a spell and walking through and casting a spell through. like casting mana bolt a purely astral barrier does nothing to, but a sustained spell has a astral presence and might be stopped. The next section on getting around mana barriers does not specify what sustained spells need to but it could just assume you know that from the previous section.

Way it reads to me, lets you combat spells to keep simple:
Astral Mana Barrier
- Physical Spells go through without penalty
Physical Mana Barrier
- Mana spells go through without penalty

Honestly seems more trouble than worth, decent House Rule would just make them all Dual Natured