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SR6 Pure Mysadept

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markelphoenix

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« on: <08-16-20/1441:08> »
Looking for overall feedback. Should be a pretty good Edge generator.

GM of LC allows for 1 initiation in chargen.


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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <08-16-20/1456:34> »
It's a little hinky that someone can attain 5 skill ranks in Sorcery without knowing any spells, but it's technically legal and if your GM doesn't object there's no reason for the internet peanut gallery to object.

Rules-wise, it does seem like you have too many PPs, even considering you didn't take any spells at all.  Assuming you picked Magic A, that'd mean you have 4 Power Points.  You didn't take the Power Point metamagic for your initiation, so you're capped at a maximum of 4 PPs.  Even less if you took a lower priority for Magic.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #2 on: <08-16-20/1539:19> »
It's a little hinky that someone can attain 5 skill ranks in Sorcery without knowing any spells, but it's technically legal and if your GM doesn't object there's no reason for the internet peanut gallery to object.

Rules-wise, it does seem like you have too many PPs, even considering you didn't take any spells at all.  Assuming you picked Magic A, that'd mean you have 4 Power Points.  You didn't take the Power Point metamagic for your initiation, so you're capped at a maximum of 4 PPs.  Even less if you took a lower priority for Magic.

Thought with Errata, Adept Power Points increased with Magic rating in chargen, and not just attribute rating.

Lormyr

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« Reply #3 on: <08-16-20/1542:33> »
It's a little hinky that someone can attain 5 skill ranks in Sorcery without knowing any spells, but it's technically legal and if your GM doesn't object there's no reason for the internet peanut gallery to object.

Rules-wise, it does seem like you have too many PPs, even considering you didn't take any spells at all.  Assuming you picked Magic A, that'd mean you have 4 Power Points.  You didn't take the Power Point metamagic for your initiation, so you're capped at a maximum of 4 PPs.  Even less if you took a lower priority for Magic.

Thought with Errata, Adept Power Points increased with Magic rating in chargen, and not just attribute rating.

Applies only to Adepts, not Mystic Adepts.

Mystic Adepts can only acquire power points from priority table magic rating and initiation. And "fake" effective points from foci, of course.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

markelphoenix

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« Reply #4 on: <08-16-20/1548:01> »
It's a little hinky that someone can attain 5 skill ranks in Sorcery without knowing any spells, but it's technically legal and if your GM doesn't object there's no reason for the internet peanut gallery to object.

Rules-wise, it does seem like you have too many PPs, even considering you didn't take any spells at all.  Assuming you picked Magic A, that'd mean you have 4 Power Points.  You didn't take the Power Point metamagic for your initiation, so you're capped at a maximum of 4 PPs.  Even less if you took a lower priority for Magic.

Thought with Errata, Adept Power Points increased with Magic rating in chargen, and not just attribute rating.

Applies only to Adepts, not Mystic Adepts.

Mystic Adepts can only acquire power points from priority table magic rating and initiation. And "fake" effective points from foci, of course.

Weird. Another interpretation of RAW is that only applies in CharGen. When you go to section on Adept powers, it states Adepts, not Physical or Mystic. So, it can be read that in chargen, Power Points = Magic not allocated to spells  from attribute table, then post chargen raising magic would increase power points.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <08-16-20/1550:08> »
Mystic Adepts are not a type of Adept. (There's no such thing as a Physical Adpet anymore...)  Ergo, when a rule says "Adepts can..." it does not also mean "Adepts and Mystic Adepts can....".

I can assure you that the only ways Mystic Adepts can "gain" PPs is via:
1) picking a higher magic priority pick (capping out at A)
2) picking the power point metamagic when initiating


I can also assure you that in the case of Mystic Adepts, they never gain PPs when their MAG increases. That's true both during chargen AND after.
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1558:57> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #6 on: <08-16-20/1558:45> »
Weird. Another interpretation of RAW is that only applies in CharGen. When you go to section on Adept powers, it states Adepts, not Physical or Mystic. So, it can be read that in chargen, Power Points = Magic not allocated to spells  from attribute table, then post chargen raising magic would increase power points.

I agree that is what the CRB says. Some of this was altered in errata (primarily Mystic Adepts cannot buy power points for 5 Karma each during chargen and that when they lose essence they also lose magic), and the other part about not gaining a power point when raising Magic is an accepted carry over from earlier editions that is not actually written anywhere in the CRB that I can find. You are right that the book does not say that at all though, unless we are just both blind and missed it.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <08-16-20/1559:55> »
Weird. Another interpretation of RAW is that only applies in CharGen. When you go to section on Adept powers, it states Adepts, not Physical or Mystic. So, it can be read that in chargen, Power Points = Magic not allocated to spells  from attribute table, then post chargen raising magic would increase power points.

I agree that is what the CRB says. Some of this was altered in errata (primarily Mystic Adepts cannot buy power points for 5 Karma each during chargen and that when they lose essence they also lose magic), and the other part about not gaining a power point when raising Magic is an accepted carry over from earlier editions that is not actually written anywhere in the CRB that I can find. You are right that the book does not say that at all though, unless we are just both blind and missed it.

I'm 99% sure you're missing it.  Will update post/eat crow as appropriate after checking book.

EDIT:
Ok.  Walking thru the legalese:

Chargen reference: the Magic Priority pick page 66.  There's a paragraph discussing Adepts in fluff/lore sense, and punts you to pg 156 for the hard rules.
Over on pg 156, one of the subjects covered there is Power points.  The key sentence is
Quote from: Power Points, SR6W pg 156
Whenever adept characters gain or
lose a point of Magic, they also gain or lose a power
point.

Yes, it'd be nicer if "adept" was capitalized, but let's be real and recognize that the CRB simply is not written to the level of precision where you can actually say "since it's lowercase, it's not a game term".  There's more reason Adept != (Adept or Mystic Adept) than that potential ambiguity due to capitalization, anyway.

Back on pg 66, note that the Mystic Adept rules do not tell you to refer to pg 156.  Also note that there's no argument (that I can see) that would allow you to simultaneously choose to be both Adept and Mystic Adept... you have to be one or the other.  In the same way you cannot be both an Aspected Magician and a Full Magician... you have to pick and in picking, you're picking to NOT be everything else.  So on pg 66, the paragraph that covers "if you picked Mystic Adept" gives rules that do not jive with the rules on pg 156.  Namely:
Quote from: Magic Priority in Chargen, pg 66 SR6W
This uses the Magic value in the Priority
table, not as adjusted with Karma or adjustment
points (but it is reduced by Essence loss).

I can't think of any good faith argument where there's any ambiguity that allows for a Mystic Adept to do chargen with 5 or 6 PPs, since the max MAG on the priority pick is 4. 

But wait, there's post-chargen!  These chargen rules don't refer to the post-chargen rules for Mystic Adepts, but they do exist and they're on pg. 158, directly following the rules for Adept Powers.  On pg 158, it discusses the relationship of PP to MAG rating without ever mentioning that PPs go up when MAG goes up.  And if PPs don't go up when you're a Mystic Adept, it's phoney baloney to say they go up when MAG goes up on the basis of being "a kind of Adept".
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1623:06> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #8 on: <08-16-20/1600:08> »
Mystic Adepts are not a type of Adept. (There's no such thing as a Physical Adpet anymore...)  Ergo, when a rule says "Adepts can..." it does not also mean "Adepts and Mystic Adepts can....".

This cannot be true, otherwise Mystic Adepts can never gain PP, since the Metamagic says "Adepts Only".

I'm 99% sure you're missing it.  Will update post/eat crow as appropriate after checking book.

Yeah man let me know if you find it, I'd love to have the reference. Then again folks also assumed power levels were limited by magic rank, which is also no longer the case.
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1601:39> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <08-16-20/1608:08> »
Mystic Adepts are not a type of Adept. (There's no such thing as a Physical Adpet anymore...)  Ergo, when a rule says "Adepts can..." it does not also mean "Adepts and Mystic Adepts can....".

This cannot be true, otherwise Mystic Adepts can never gain PP, since the Metamagic says "Adepts Only".

Qi Foci, too.

News flash: we still haven't achieved perfection ;)

EDIT:  I updated my previous post with an explanation for why Mystic Adepts don't gain PPs when MAG goes up.. neither during chargen nor after.
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1624:02> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #10 on: <08-16-20/1623:19> »
Mystic Adepts are not a type of Adept. (There's no such thing as a Physical Adpet anymore...)  Ergo, when a rule says "Adepts can..." it does not also mean "Adepts and Mystic Adepts can....".

This cannot be true, otherwise Mystic Adepts can never gain PP, since the Metamagic says "Adepts Only".

Qi Foci, too.

News flash: we still haven't achieved perfection ;)

Yeah...I have a feeling this missed errata/review. If a Mystic Adept is not a subclass of Adept...even though it's in the name, and are unable to take anything that is listed Adept Only.....then they have no means of advancing anything that is adept related (Initiation Power Point Metamagic and Qi Foci)....sooo....yeah, I guess someone could just choose Priority B and grab 3 ranks of Increase Reflexes and never think about the Adept portion of being a Mystic Adept...but...well, tell me you see an issue with this interpretation?

Seems far more reasonable interpretation that Mystic Adept is a type of Adept... I mean, it's in the name. That is the only way it makes any sense....otherwise, what of the character that choose Mystic Adept with Magic Rank B, chooses to spend all Magic on Spells, with no Power Points. Are you telling me that it is RAI that they never get to use ANY Adept abilities?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <08-16-20/1626:28> »
Mystic Adepts are not a type of Adept. (There's no such thing as a Physical Adpet anymore...)  Ergo, when a rule says "Adepts can..." it does not also mean "Adepts and Mystic Adepts can....".

This cannot be true, otherwise Mystic Adepts can never gain PP, since the Metamagic says "Adepts Only".

Qi Foci, too.

News flash: we still haven't achieved perfection ;)

Yeah...I have a feeling this missed errata/review. If a Mystic Adept is not a subclass of Adept...even though it's in the name, and are unable to take anything that is listed Adept Only.....then they have no means of advancing anything that is adept related (Initiation Power Point Metamagic and Qi Foci)....sooo....yeah, I guess someone could just choose Priority B and grab 3 ranks of Increase Reflexes and never think about the Adept portion of being a Mystic Adept...but...well, tell me you see an issue with this interpretation?

*grits teeth*  it wasn't MISSED.

(not that I'm angry with you for seeing that it was necessary errata, of course...)

Quote
Seems far more reasonable interpretation that Mystic Adept is a type of Adept... I mean, it's in the name. That is the only way it makes any sense....otherwise, what of the character that choose Mystic Adept with Magic Rank B, chooses to spend all Magic on Spells, with no Power Points.

I don't buy it.  Not even for a dollar.

Adepts and Mystic Adepts are two different kinds of things you can pick to be in your Magic priority.  You can't be both an Adept and a Mystic Adept any more than you can be both an Aspected Magician and a Full Magician.

Quote
Are you telling me that it is RAI that they never get to use ANY Adept abilities?

Nope, that's not what I'm telling you at all.  I'm telling you that they are something that's NOT an Adept, but do get diminished access to PPs and with those fewer PPs they get, they can buy the same Adept powers that Adepts buy.

And let's flip this on its ear.  Do you think that, for the exact same priority picks, it's fair for one Adept to have PPs and only PPs, and another "kind of adept" to have just as many, PLUS spirits, PLUS the ability to learn spells?  That's seriously fair in any way?
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1630:09> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #12 on: <08-16-20/1633:14> »
Mystic Adepts are not a type of Adept. (There's no such thing as a Physical Adpet anymore...)  Ergo, when a rule says "Adepts can..." it does not also mean "Adepts and Mystic Adepts can....".

This cannot be true, otherwise Mystic Adepts can never gain PP, since the Metamagic says "Adepts Only".

Qi Foci, too.

News flash: we still haven't achieved perfection ;)

Yeah...I have a feeling this missed errata/review. If a Mystic Adept is not a subclass of Adept...even though it's in the name, and are unable to take anything that is listed Adept Only.....then they have no means of advancing anything that is adept related (Initiation Power Point Metamagic and Qi Foci)....sooo....yeah, I guess someone could just choose Priority B and grab 3 ranks of Increase Reflexes and never think about the Adept portion of being a Mystic Adept...but...well, tell me you see an issue with this interpretation?

*grits teeth*  it wasn't MISSED.

(not that I'm angry with you for seeing that it was necessary errata, of course...)

Quote
Seems far more reasonable interpretation that Mystic Adept is a type of Adept... I mean, it's in the name. That is the only way it makes any sense....otherwise, what of the character that choose Mystic Adept with Magic Rank B, chooses to spend all Magic on Spells, with no Power Points.

I don't buy it.  Not even for a dollar.

Adepts and Mystic Adepts are two different kinds of things you can pick to be in your Magic priority.  You can't be both an Adept and a Mystic Adept any more than you can be both an Aspected Magician and a Full Magician.

Quote
Are you telling me that it is RAI that they never get to use ANY Adept abilities?

Nope, that's not what I'm telling you at all.  I'm telling you that they are something that's NOT an Adept, but do get diminished access to PPs and with those fewer PPs they get, they can buy the same Adept powers that Adepts buy.

You agree that they can enver advance their Adept Powers post chargen, though, per RAW, if indeed Mystic Adept is not a type of Adept?

Pg. 168 Power Point (Adepts Only) (on metamagics)

pg. 155 Qi (pronounced “chee”) foci only work for adepts.

So, you hold that Mystic Adepts are not a type of Adept. You also hold that they can't use Qi Foci because it explicitly states it only works for Adepts. You also hold that Magic increases do not raise Mystic Adept PP post Chargen because it states simply Adept and Not Mystic Adept. If all of that logic is true and we must stay consistent, then the Metamagic of Power Point is limited to only Adepts and not Mystic Adepts, therefore Mystic Adepts can NEVER advance their adept abilities post-chargen.

Do you believe that is intentional or an error? Alternatively, would it make more sense that Mystic Adepts, except where a specific rule references them (such as chargen), have Adept rules applied to them?
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1634:51> by markelphoenix »

Lormyr

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« Reply #13 on: <08-16-20/1635:56> »
So SSDR, let me preface by saying that I agree that I do not believe it is intended for Mystic Adepts to gain PP from raising magic, nor do I believe that allowing that would be a good move balance wise. We're 100% on the same page in terms of end result.

That said, I do have to say that legalese is very flimsy at best, for two primary reasons.

1. Much like SR5, mystic adepts can still take anything a regular adept can, with the primary difference in the archetypes on the adept side being the different formulas for how they generate their power points.

Since the SR6 CRB doesn't differentiate that in any way, only having a how power points are gained section under adept powers (which applies to both), it is only reasonable to operate with the understanding that section applies to both.

2. You say that adept no longer equals mystic adept, and that is totally fine if that is the intent, but I think you will also realize that is at best very poorly and at worse not at all pointed out anywhere. The current language is not clear from either a change blindness from earlier editions or brand spanking new to the brand reading.


Again though, I agree with the intent of your reading. We just need the language cleared up significantly so it actually says that.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: <08-16-20/1636:41> »
I told you the intent is that Mystic Adepts can indeed bond Qi Foci and gain PPs via the Power Point initiation.

I've also told you that's the ONLY ways they can gain PPs (aside from picking a higher pick in chargen, up to A).  This is the part you seem to have a problem agreeing with.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.