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Snacks -- Tanky Dwarf Juicer Missions build

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Hobbes

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« on: <08-15-20/1320:10> »
Snacks

Metatype   C   9 Dwarf
Attributes   A   24
Skills   D   16
Magic   E   0
Resources   B   275000

S   3 (4)
A   6 (7)
R   4 (5)
B   6 (7)
I   5
L   3
C   5
W   6

Edge 4
Essence 0.05

Nuyen 1652

Skills
Close Combat   6 (7)   Unarmed
Stealth           5 (6)   Sneak
Firearms           5 (6)   Assault Rifle
Athletics              1   
Engineering   1   Lockpicking
Con                     1   
Influence             1   
Perception             1   Visual

Knowledge Skills
Pharmacology
Para-zoology
Cuisine
Corporate Security


Martial Arts
Sangre y Acero
Kick Attack
Flying Kick


Qualities

Impaired Attribute Logic
Impaired Attribute Str
Stolen Gear 20
Built Tough 4
Honor Bound Bushido
Quick Healer
Toxin Resistance
Thermographic Vision

Augment                      Rating
Alpha Bone Density                 4
Alpha Adrenaline pump             2
Pain Editor   
Used Super Thyroid   
Used Tailored Pheromones          3
Alpha Platelet factory                
Alpha Symbiotes                 4
Alpha Toxin Extractor                 6
Firearms Reflex Recorder   
Stealth Reflex Recorder   
Close Combat Reflex Recorder   

Contacts
Doc Giggles, Street Doc (5/5)
Tim, Contract Corporate Spider (5/5)
Kitten, Fixer (5/5)

Gear
Fake SIN 4
Jackrabbit
FN Har
70 rounds Explosive
External Smartgun

Metalink
Trodes
AR Gloves
Engineering Kit
Contacts
Flare
Low Light


Gecko Tape Gloves
Gas Mask
survival kit
Trauma patch
stim patch
Helmet
Smart gun link

Securetech Skinshield
Programmable Camo Package

Ace of Coins

1 month low life, 3300 Nuyen per Month

Kamikaze  1
Psyche  3
Jazz  1
Cram  5

Background

Snacks is friendly, always smiling, always high on something, and constantly eating.  Snacks started out in the corporate world.  Parents were respectable wage slaves.  Snacks went to culinary night school, but couldn't quite catch on at anything other than low quality fast food joints and local bars.  Snacks started running about a year ago to make ends meet and get those things his parents never had.

Unfortunately Snacks reach exceeds his grasp frequently.  In order to pay for school and the gourmet tours he took out loans from a shocking assortment of criminal organizations.  Runners who work with Snacks frequently have a pool going "Which loan shark beat him up this week?"

Notes: Snacks is damn tanky.  Can hit a 10 Willpower when needed.  Ignores condition monitors until dead.  As resistant to Toxins as you're going to get without a chem seal.  Should almost always be running Psyche, and should pop Cram regularly as well.  Once things get serious either Jazz or Kamikaze depending on his mood.  Stun damage from crashes isn't anything to worry about.  Pain Regulator lets you ignore a full Stun CM, and a half hour nap should get you about 20 Dice to heal stun.  An hour should clear all stun damage.  A few hours sleep will clear 6 or 7 Physical boxes as well.  Given 24 hours of laying in the gutter Snacks can come back from the brink of death to full health.

Advancement.  Armor and weapon mods, probably more guns, grenades and such.  Between lifestyle and mission expendables Snacks won't have a ton of Nuyen to throw around, but really doesn't need much more.  Karma goes into Specializations and Expertise and then into raising skills.   

penllawen

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« Reply #1 on: <08-15-20/1338:47> »
Notes: Snacks is damn tanky.  Can hit a 10 Willpower when needed.  Ignores condition monitors until dead.  As resistant to Toxins as you're going to get without a chem seal.  Should almost always be running Psyche, and should pop Cram regularly as well.  Once things get serious either Jazz or Kamikaze depending on his mood.  Stun damage from crashes isn't anything to worry about.  Pain Regulator lets you ignore a full Stun CM, and a half hour nap should get you about 20 Dice to heal stun.  An hour should clear all stun damage.  A few hours sleep will clear 6 or 7 Physical boxes as well.  Given 24 hours of laying in the gutter Snacks can come back from the brink of death to full health.
Good grief. I can appreciate the art of these ruthlessly optimised, fully RAW characters that you and Lormyr are producing. But as a GM, this paragraph brought me out in hives. I am extremely glad I donít play in SRM where I have to GM for / generate characters to match people like this.

Lormyr

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« Reply #2 on: <08-15-20/1356:48> »
Good grief. I can appreciate the art of these ruthlessly optimised, fully RAW characters that you and Lormyr are producing. But as a GM, this paragraph brought me out in hives. I am extremely glad I donít play in SRM where I have to GM for / generate characters to match people like this.

I can appreciate how you or others might feel daunted by that prospect. For me it has always been a very easy issue to work with on either end of the table though, because there is no such thing as a "problem" character, only problem players.

Lormyr as a GM: Did you have fun playing that ludicrously OP build? Awesome man, then I did my job.

Others Players: Hey Lormyr, we get what you did there, but do you think you can reign it in for the rest of the table?

Lormyr: You bet dude.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #3 on: <08-15-20/1357:38> »
GMs shouldn't care about PC dice pools really.  The GM can always just toss 10 more dice if needed, they're the GM. 

Snacks shouldn't be stealing focus from other PCs, even in combat.  Snacks is a convenient place for the GM to throw the big bad attacks at, or toss out a Neurostun grenade without getting a TPK.  But there are higher damage/flashier combat builds.  Snacks is more of a grinder.

The challenge (IMO) to these optimized builds is keeping relevant for all stages of a run.  The Meet, Legwork, Infiltration, Roll for Initiative after Infiltration goes to hell. 

Snacks isn't my playstyle but I've seen lots of damage sponges at Missions tables, so I know it's popular.  And finding a niche for the non-standard kind of Bio-Augments was entertaining.  Normally you'd grab Agility, Reaction, Initiative and carry on.  The Salad Bar of buffs that Snacks has is it's own kind of utility.   

penllawen

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« Reply #4 on: <08-15-20/1448:53> »
Others Players: Hey Lormyr, we get what you did there, but do you think you can reign it in for the rest of the table?
Well, that's OK in a one-shot, but I never run those. My current campaign just passed two years with a stable group. I'd feel downright shitty asking someone to play with one arm behind their back for the long haul.

Missions is just a very different sort of game, is all.

GMs shouldn't care about PC dice pools really.  The GM can always just toss 10 more dice if needed, they're the GM. 
I'd feel weird about that resulting in T-shaped security, eg. where the HTR squads are rolling 20 dice because the streetsam PC is hard as nails, but the matrix security is run out of a Rating 3 host and the astral security is two Rating 2 spirits because the decker and mage PCs are weak and doughy. Or, you know, some other variation on that theme.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #5 on: <08-15-20/1632:20> »
I'm not sure this character is that hard to deal with for a GM. They are solidly resistant to alternative forms of damage but unless I'm reading it they have a 10-12 dice defense pool.  While they soak good for this game, that isn't the same as ignoring damage.  They can get whittled down, though a bit slower than most builds. Sure goons level enemies who will just miss that defense pool or if when they hit only get one net hit on their DV3 weapons can almost be ignored by them.  But tougher opposition, probably can do a box or two damage every attack without outright killing another player with a similar attack.  Having someone who can take the sniper shot to the head on the team is somewhat useful as well for a GM. 


Hobbes

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« Reply #6 on: <08-15-20/1939:12> »
13 Defense dice, 13 Soak Dice when all the buttons are pushed, and reduces any Physical hit of 2 or more by 1.  Additional damage reduction from the Tough Quality, or a Metatype with more Body, is possible.  Could also add Security Armor or Gelweave.  Really shouldn't be necessary for Missions, unless the Missions writing team has suddenly started handing out Missile Launchers.

PR 6 Docwagon HTR Officer has 12 Attack dice, basically a 50/50 chance to hit.  Ares Alpha doing 6 DV bursts will get a box through every other shot.  If you're trying to solo 5 or 6 of these guys, yeah, you're in trouble.  Don't do that.  Missions rarely throws a squad of PR 6 tactical officers at a single character though. 

For the most part anything PR 5 on down will have a much lower chance to hit.  Pistols, most SMGs will only occasionally leak a box through.  Snacks is effectively immune to most of the gunfire a Missions character would normally see.  Yes there are several Chicago or Neo Tokyo Missions I would expect Snacks to take a few boxes before the fight was over.  He can take 12 boxes before he passes out.  Should be a rare event.

It's okay for tanks to take damage.  It's okay for them to fall down even, as long as the team can carry the day still.  Because if whatever the GM was throwing around was able to take down something like Snacks, the 3 Body Mage or Decker would have been paste several turns ago.  (and perhaps already are, who knows...)


Lormyr

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« Reply #7 on: <08-15-20/1945:34> »
GMs shouldn't care about PC dice pools really.  The GM can always just toss 10 more dice if needed, they're the GM.

I personally have never GM'd that way, and never will. It comes down to three points for me.

1. If a player hyperspecializes in one aspect of a build, it generally means they want to be top of class at it. If I, as a GM, just wantonly up the threat level to match the optimization then I am essentially saying that what you want our of your build doesn't matter.

2. There are always other ways to challenge builds. Outside of a high Karma defense Mystic Adept in SR5 (no longer works in SR6 for a myriad of reasons), every build has combat holes. You just can't plug them all, and this is particularly true in SR6.

3. It just doesn't make sense. If you look at the stats of the PR rating 8-10 NPCs, these guys are like the fucking cream of the crop 1%ers of the universe. Only truly unique and big named characters swing harder. If you end up facing these guys every single Mission, just because Steve min-maxed, it personally obliterates the integrity of the game setting for me.

I expect that others will view this very differently, and that is ok, and leads me to:

Well, that's OK in a one-shot, but I never run those. My current campaign just passed two years with a stable group. I'd feel downright shitty asking someone to play with one arm behind their back for the long haul.

Missions is just a very different sort of game, is all.

Bingo.

In a home game setting, it is important to make sure that all the people playing together have similar play styles and similar desires for the experience they want out of their shared game. Discussing this ahead of time, and having the insight to recognize when someone will just not be a good fit and politely expressing as much is the key to heading off almost all compatibility issues.

In Missions, or any other living campaign, you need to be tolerant for a few hours sometimes. If you can't do that, you shouldn't participate. Getting upset because a player is being a problem is one thing. Getting upset because of how someone built a character is completely unacceptable.

"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #8 on: <08-15-20/2040:10> »
13 Defense dice, 13 Soak Dice when all the buttons are pushed, and reduces any Physical hit of 2 or more by 1.  Additional damage reduction from the Tough Quality, or a Metatype with more Body, is possible.  Could also add Security Armor or Gelweave.  Really shouldn't be necessary for Missions, unless the Missions writing team has suddenly started handing out Missile Launchers.

PR 6 Docwagon HTR Officer has 12 Attack dice, basically a 50/50 chance to hit.  Ares Alpha doing 6 DV bursts will get a box through every other shot.  If you're trying to solo 5 or 6 of these guys, yeah, you're in trouble.  Don't do that.  Missions rarely throws a squad of PR 6 tactical officers at a single character though. 

For the most part anything PR 5 on down will have a much lower chance to hit.  Pistols, most SMGs will only occasionally leak a box through.  Snacks is effectively immune to most of the gunfire a Missions character would normally see.  Yes there are several Chicago or Neo Tokyo Missions I would expect Snacks to take a few boxes before the fight was over.  He can take 12 boxes before he passes out.  Should be a rare event.

It's okay for tanks to take damage.  It's okay for them to fall down even, as long as the team can carry the day still.  Because if whatever the GM was throwing around was able to take down something like Snacks, the 3 Body Mage or Decker would have been paste several turns ago.  (and perhaps already are, who knows...)

Yeah, I wasn't sure on exactly how much when tuned up all the way but that seems reasonable to me. Most PR6 and lower is not a massive threat(the yakuza blade master being a anomaly for PR4) so a tank so taking a couple boxes seems to fit. You will have some fights of that level where you take nothing, others where the GM rules fluky high and you take 4-5 in one shot. but overall not tons of damage and the durability make motivate people to focus on him and use a group attack. And if you can take it there is nothing better for the team for 4 of the 6 enemies to shoot at 1 target leaving the Decker and the mage unscathed.  Which I assume is usually the intent of making a tank build for most players.  They want the opposition to yell, holy shit he wont die focus on him.


Hobbes

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« Reply #9 on: <08-15-20/2111:09> »
GMs shouldn't care about PC dice pools really.  The GM can always just toss 10 more dice if needed, they're the GM.

I personally have never GM'd that way, and never will. It comes down to three points for me.

1. If a player hyperspecializes in one aspect of a build, it generally means they want to be top of class at it. If I, as a GM, just wantonly up the threat level to match the optimization then I am essentially saying that what you want our of your build doesn't matter.

2. There are always other ways to challenge builds. Outside of a high Karma defense Mystic Adept in SR5 (no longer works in SR6 for a myriad of reasons), every build has combat holes. You just can't plug them all, and this is particularly true in SR6.

3. It just doesn't make sense. If you look at the stats of the PR rating 8-10 NPCs, these guys are like the fucking cream of the crop 1%ers of the universe. Only truly unique and big named characters swing harder. If you end up facing these guys every single Mission, just because Steve min-maxed, it personally obliterates the integrity of the game setting for me.

I expect that others will view this very differently, and that is ok, and leads me to:

Well, that's OK in a one-shot, but I never run those. My current campaign just passed two years with a stable group. I'd feel downright shitty asking someone to play with one arm behind their back for the long haul.

Missions is just a very different sort of game, is all.

Bingo.

In a home game setting, it is important to make sure that all the people playing together have similar play styles and similar desires for the experience they want out of their shared game. Discussing this ahead of time, and having the insight to recognize when someone will just not be a good fit and politely expressing as much is the key to heading off almost all compatibility issues.

In Missions, or any other living campaign, you need to be tolerant for a few hours sometimes. If you can't do that, you shouldn't participate. Getting upset because a player is being a problem is one thing. Getting upset because of how someone built a character is completely unacceptable.

I've spent the last 30 years playing in a group of fellow power gamers.  I stopped getting upset as a GM about other players doing what I do as a player a long time ago.  I scale up NPCs to match the PCs when something needs to be a mechanical challenge.  Most of the time, I happily let the PCs overwhelm the NPCs and present non-mechanical, story driven challenges along the way.  "Yes you can do that, but...." is a powerful phrase in the GM toolkit.   

Missions is a very different critter from a home game.  As a Missions GM all I'm trying to do is make sure everyone has fun.  Which ain't always easy because some players version of fun is occasionally incompatible with other players version of fun.  But most of the time I think I succeed. 

Home games you can have a session 0 and figure it out.  And Shadowrun is really easy as the Matrix guy can throw 18 dice and the Face can toss 12 and its all good. 

Lormyr

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« Reply #10 on: <08-17-20/1201:01> »
Missions is a very different critter from a home game.  As a Missions GM all I'm trying to do is make sure everyone has fun.  Which ain't always easy because some players version of fun is occasionally incompatible with other players version of fun.  But most of the time I think I succeed.

I hear you my man. I've only ran at one SRM table over the last 5 years where this was a serious problem, and what it basically boiled down to was one player being really upset at two other players who min-maxed (and were a little spot light hogging until another at the table asked if they minded letting the others get some swings in too, at which point they dialed it back), and being upset at me for refusing to not invent nerfs for them or run their rules incorrectly to penalize them to her satisfaction. The upset player finally had an outburst over it and I told her that she could take a minute, recompose, and rejoin us if she was willing to accept the different play styles at the table or that if she can't she and the rest of us would be best served if left. She choose the later and things were smooth after that.

Edit: Further, because I don't believe in coddling, I will also just say this. The chick was ludicrously attractive, which is rare enough in hobby, so I expect she was used to getting whatever she wanted. Homey don't play that shit though.
« Last Edit: <08-17-20/1203:08> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling