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Why aren't SIN checks used in corp facilities?

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penllawen

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« on: <08-16-20/0355:25> »
Per RAW, there appears to be no way to steal/spoof/dupe a persona. You cannot pretend to be anyone else on the Matrix.

Also per RAW, there's no mechanic to broadcast someone else's SIN, even though a SIN is just a string and it's quite public as most people are always broadcasting theirs. (Stepping beyond RAW, we can assume the SIN's stored biometrics and biographical information wouldn't match, but they don't match for a rating 1 fake SIN anyway.)

So we have two "unstealable"/"unhackable" technologies. Only person A's persona can broadcast person A's SIN.

Meanwhile, we regularly see corp facilities that have security doors secured with keypads, keycard scanners, or fingerprint/retina scanners -- all things the PCs can bypass or fool with advanced tech. (This, of course, is an important game element.)

Why aren't those doors secured with SIN scanners? The corp issued the SINs, so the corp certainly knows all the SIN information. And SIN broadcasts appear to be bulletproof. So if the door only opened on a command from a persona with a validated SIN belonging to someone who works for the corp and has access, the whole thing would be much more secure, right?


Hobbes

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« Reply #1 on: <08-16-20/0955:51> »
SIN scanners and SIN checks only pass/fail if its a valid SIN.  Not is it Bob from Accounting's SIN.

Weather or not it's Bob from Accounting isn't the SIN databases problem, that's a you problem.

("you" as in that Site's problem)

penllawen

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« Reply #2 on: <08-16-20/1024:45> »
SIN scanners and SIN checks only pass/fail if its a valid SIN.  Not is it Bob from Accounting's SIN.
SR5 CRB pg 364 says a R5 SIN verification check has a "Full verification and consistency check; biometrics tested against sample." Rating 6 tests "multiple biometric samples." So it is testing if the person presenting the SIN has the same (say) fingerprints, retina print, and DNA as Bob from accounting.

penllawen

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« Reply #3 on: <08-16-20/1108:28> »
Weather or not it's Bob from Accounting isn't the SIN databases problem, that's a you problem.
Furthermore, per pg 363

A SIN is issued by a country or extraterritorial corporation (AA or AAA rating) at the time a person becomes a citizen.... A set of biometric data including DNA, retinal scan, and fingerprints will also be taken and logged into the system, associated with the newly created SIN. All of this information is then registered with two master databases: one maintained by the country that issued the SIN...


So any extraterritorial corp has a complete database of DNA/retina/fingerprints of all employees who hold a corp SIN, which is presumably all bar the most junior of them. So Renraku surely can tell if it's Bob from Renraku Accounting's SIN.

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <08-16-20/1109:09> »
The SIN verification system is just checking the integrity of the SIN and report if the person in front of you is a valid citizen or not. Just as Hobbes said. And just as the game mechanics say.

There are multiple things a SIN verification system can check.....
Verifying that the SIN have an accurate checksum
Verifying that data trail attached to the SIN is not fabricated
Verifying that there is no inconsistencies in the data trail by cross checking multiple databases
Verifying with a biometrics database that this SIN actually have logged samples
Verifying that vital statistics embedded in the SIN is matching logged samples
Verifying with multiple biometrics databases that this SIN have identical samples

But the SIN verification system does not run facial recognition.
It does not include a DNA scanner.
There is no fingerprint scanner.
There is no voice pattern recognition sensor.

There is no need for the subject to have disguise skill or take social tests during a SIN verification.

The SIN verification is just there to verify the integrity of the SIN to make sure it is not fake. That the character indeed is a legit citizen. Nothing more. Nothing less. And to bypass it you just get a fake SIN (any fake SIN will do, as long as the rating is high enough to fool the system).

The corporation probably have one in the public lobby (to make sure no SINless are entering).


Having said that.....
To find out that the character actually belong on a restricted floor (to stop infiltrators) the corporation use different security measurements. Such as facial recognition. Keypads. Proximity RFDI badges with corporate logo and photo of the employer. DNA scanners. Fingerprint scanners. etc etc.

And there are also plenty of rules on how an infiltrator get to bypass them.

penllawen

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« Reply #5 on: <08-16-20/1123:52> »
But the SIN verification system does not run facial recognition.
It does not include a DNA scanner.
There is no fingerprint scanner.
There is no voice pattern recognition sensor.
But that's not what the book says:

SR5 CRB pg 364 says a R5 SIN verification check has a "Full verification and consistency check; biometrics tested against sample." Rating 6 tests "multiple biometric samples." So it is testing if the person presenting the SIN has the same (say) fingerprints, retina print, and DNA as Bob from accounting.

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <08-16-20/1138:00> »
This is just more examples of database integrity checking.

You are (wrongly) assuming that a SIN verification unit is taking fingerprints and DNA from the subject (but if you read the game mechanics you can see that this is obviously not the case).

The biometrics that belong to the SIN (according to the GSINR) are verified against the samples that the corporation grabbed from the subject the day the SIN was issued.

SR5 p. 367 Issuing a SIN
A set of biometric data including DNA, retinal scan, and fingerprints will also be taken and logged into the system, associated with the newly created SIN.

If they match (well enough) then the SIN verification unit will be satisfied and it will report back with a green light to the SIN verification operator.



Edit;

If SIN verification would include facial recognition then disguise would be part of beating the verification. But this is not the case.

If SIN verification would include fingerprints then a fingerprint sleeve would be part of beating the verification. But this is not the case.

If SIN verification would include taking blood samples from the subject then preserved samples in an enzyme bath would be part of beating the verification. But this is not the case.

To check the integrity of the SIN only the rating of the fake SIN and the rating of the SIN verification system matters. Nothing else.
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1141:06> by Xenon »

penllawen

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« Reply #7 on: <08-16-20/1147:06> »
The biometrics that belong to the SIN (according to the GSINR) are verified against the samples that the corporation grabbed from the subject the day the SIN was issued.
I don't understand how you are contorting "biometrics tested against sample" to fit this. You think the two SIN databases are checked against each other? What does that achieve?

Why are those biometric samples gathered and stored in the GSINR and the corp SIN registry if they are never used to validate the SIN?

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <08-16-20/1152:44> »
You think the two SIN databases are checked against each other? What does that achieve?
It is used to validate that the SIN is not fake (as far as the SIN verification unit can tell).

After all, to check that the SIN is not fake is the whole point of the SIN verification check.... ;)



Book is full of security devices you can use to prevent infiltrators.
Book is also full of ways to bypass said devices.
Because you are intended to infiltrate.



But when it comes to SIN verification the only thing it checks is the integrity of the SIN,
to make sure it is not a fake SIN. Nothing else.
And to bypass it you buy a fake SIN of a high enough rating. Nothing else.

Hobbes

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« Reply #9 on: <08-16-20/1205:44> »
It was like this in 5th Edition too.   There are certain things you can't think about too much.  How does a Commlink know you're you?  How do Personas and SINs relate? 

If you apply real world logic to these gamey sub-systems you'll make anything other than a smash and grab impossible. 

You are, correct though, if a Commlink magically knows who you are and you can't use it to broadcast anything other than "Your" SIN, then you'd think that bio-metric data on the SIN could be used to validate who is walking around. 

My counter point to that is that is that it should be possible to fool a cheap commlink and put up it's owner's Persona and SIN, except that leads to wiping out the bank accounts of every Commlink you can lift.  So, Commlinks need to be magically able to stop that somehow, by game design fiat.  And PCs need to be able to do something other than crash a dump truck through the front door. 

It is 100% a gamey sub-system.  There are absolutely ways to houserule around these issues to make the game world more believable if you want.  I wish I had a better answer for you on this, but, it's a compromise that the game writers settled on to make it work.  And it does work.

penllawen

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« Reply #10 on: <08-16-20/1225:05> »
You are, correct though, if a Commlink magically knows who you are and you can't use it to broadcast anything other than "Your" SIN, then you'd think that bio-metric data on the SIN could be used to validate who is walking around. 
It's what I think of as the "black box problem", as in "why don't they make the whole plane out of the stuff they make the flight recorder from?" Certain tech (most obviously credsticks) is approximately unhackable, yet the strongest encryption on the valuable R&D our PCs steal is not. Why? Why is a 5k nuyen credstick more secure than a billion nuyen project?

Quote
There are certain things you can't think about too much.  How does a Commlink know you're you?  How do Personas and SINs relate? ...  If you apply real world logic to these gamey sub-systems you'll make anything other than a smash and grab impossible.
Oh, I don't think it's as desperate as all that. I think you can keep the rules approximately as-is and extend the in-universe explanations to fill in the gaps and inconsistencies. I am working on doing this for the whole of the Matrix, in fact. I already have an answer for persona theft / how commlinks know who you are, for example.

I have a draft answer for the SIN check thing too, although I wanted to see if I'd missed an explanation in strict RAW before writing my own.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <08-16-20/1307:59> »
In 5th edition your persona was YOU, no matter which burner phone you happened to be using at the time.  Because your persona icon incorporates biometrics such as brainwaves, and etc.

Trying to impersonate a specific user is on one hand impossible.  But on the other, if all you need to do is FOOL someone rather than have an impenetrable disguise (and let's face it, that's the reality in the physical world too, is it not?) you can still achieve that end via editing files on the perceiver's device/host.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #12 on: <08-16-20/1314:47> »
In 5th edition your persona was YOU, no matter which burner phone you happened to be using at the time.  Because your persona icon incorporates biometrics such as brainwaves, and etc.
Why can't I tie someone to a chair, put 'trodes on them, read their brainwaves, boot a commlink that I control but using their brainwaves for the biometrics, and use that to control their persona?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <08-16-20/1318:39> »
In 5th edition your persona was YOU, no matter which burner phone you happened to be using at the time.  Because your persona icon incorporates biometrics such as brainwaves, and etc.
Why can't I tie someone to a chair, put 'trodes on them, read their brainwaves, boot a commlink that I control but using their brainwaves for the biometrics, and use that to control their persona?

Because there's no matrix action to force another Persona to take an action.

After that, it's all in-universe technobabble to justify meta positions.

EDIT: of course what you CAN do is hack into a host/device and edit the security logs to falsely indicate the schmuck you're framing did whatever it is you wanted to impersonate him for.  And better still, you don't even need to tie him down and hook him up to a commlink to do it!
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1321:34> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #14 on: <08-16-20/1344:51> »
Because there's no matrix action to force another Persona to take an action.

After that, it's all in-universe technobabble to justify meta positions.
I find this reasoning very unsatisfying. The purpose of RPG rules is to simulate the in-universe situation. If something is possible in the fiction, it should be possible in the rules. The rules cannot be infinite, so when the fiction goes to places the rules do not, GMs should bridge over gaps by extending the existing rules logically and coherently. So if something shouldn't be possible in the rules, there should be a clear reason why it isn't possible in the fiction.

This isn't an obscure edge case. In a high-tech heist game, identity theft of personas is going to come up as something the players want to do. When my players want to do something that the rules don't cover but that should logically be possible, it's my job as GM to keep the game running.

If we use your "you can't do that because there's no explicit action for it" logic we can break the game in all sorts of ways. There's no action for sleeping. There's no action for eating.

There's no action for using a grapple fist to fly over your enemy's head while shooting down at them with a gun in your other hand. There's no action for sneaking up behind two goons then pushing them out of a window. There's no action for pulling a troll-sized pair of trousers down over a hostile anthrodrone's head. There's no action for lots of crazy cool things. Should we tell players their characters can't do these things either? Because when my players did these things, I let them do it, and I made up a dicepool and I made up a modifier, because the fiction demanded they be able to make an attempt. (They succeeded at all three.)

If we're only going to let players do things we already have rules for, we might as well play boardgames.
« Last Edit: <08-16-20/1350:11> by penllawen »