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Lolsy Missions Build

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Lormyr

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« Reply #45 on: <08-21-20/0641:54> »
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.

"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."

This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.

Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.
« Last Edit: <08-21-20/0650:02> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #46 on: <08-21-20/1350:09> »
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.

"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."

This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.

Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.

STOLEN GEAR
(NEGATIVE QUALITY)
BONUS: 1 TO 20 KARMA

and

"...but the benefit is that for each
point of Karma (up to 20)...."

And the table on the next page.

are in agreement. 

This statement "...and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥." contradicts the other three.  The simple fix is to correct 150,000¥ to 200,000¥.  Or remove the last entry on the table, and correct the other two statements to a max of 15 Bonus Karma. 

Or ban the silly thing because it's completely asinine as every character should be taking it.  Even I feel dirty taking it.  That has to mean it's a problem.   ;D     

Lormyr

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« Reply #47 on: <08-21-20/1417:30> »
Yeah. I knew there was a reason I believed 200k limit was the only legitimate way to understand the quality, but I couldn't remember why when I responded to SSDR last night and wasn't going to load up the computer just to check at that hour. Really I am good with either interpretation, it just needs to be made clear. The wording right now is contradictory.

Regarding a ban I have mixed feelings about the quality. On the one hand all that extra money is leaning towards too good, but being down health boxes of damage is potentially disastrous. The quality won't seem too good when you get a hit that forces you to burn Edge to survive because you were down those 4 CM.

Banning stuff from organized play should be an absolute last resort too from a company stand point, since you kind of want to be using the play to promote product sales.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #48 on: <08-21-20/1445:55> »
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.

"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."

This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.

Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.

That's what i thought they meant.  Like normally you could exchange karma for cash up to 50k, but you could go up to 20k with stolen a 150k difference. But the math was still a bit off.  But bad math is normal for them so to me that is still the most likely choice.  So if you go with stolen gear you do not spend normal karma for cash in char gen.  This makes more sense to me than the out right contradictory 20 points at 10k, a chart showing 200k, and saying the max is 150k.

Hobbes

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« Reply #49 on: <08-21-20/1452:56> »
When every character is simply better off taking the quality, it's too good.  200K Nuyen on a starting character is somewhere between C and B Priority.  So, 10 Metahuman Adjustment points, or 14 Attribute points or 22 Skill points....?  If there were qualities out there that did that, they would never make it to a Missions table. 

And at lower values it's trivial to manage the downside and it's flat out superior return compared to In Debt.  Mechanically, characters should really never take In Debit if Stolen Gear is an option.  And should probably never spend Karma on Nuyen. 

Obviously I'm all for rewarding system mastery but this particular quality basically lets you play Sum to 12 when everyone else is playing Sum to 10.  There isn't another quality even in shouting distance.

Hobbes

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« Reply #50 on: <08-21-20/1509:05> »
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.

"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."

This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.

Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.

That's what i thought they meant.  Like normally you could exchange karma for cash up to 50k, but you could go up to 20k with stolen a 150k difference. But the math was still a bit off.  But bad math is normal for them so to me that is still the most likely choice.  So if you go with stolen gear you do not spend normal karma for cash in char gen.  This makes more sense to me than the out right contradictory 20 points at 10k, a chart showing 200k, and saying the max is 150k.

The Karma value of the Negative Quality needs to be directly related to the amount of Nuyen gained.  Otherwise you can take a 1 point Negative quality to gain 150K Nuyen that you then pay off with 2 karma on your first Mission.  150K Nuyen for 16 net Karma (15 for Nuyen, -1 for the Negative quality, 2 spend to buy it off) is not likely intended, and would not work like any other quality in the game.   The Bonus Karma, the Nuyen and the result on the Table all need to be directly linked otherwise it's an even more exploitable quality.

I mean it's already like an Orphan in front of a factory in 1900, no need to make it worse.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #51 on: <08-21-20/1525:44> »
I don't think anyone was saying 1 karma gets you 150k, its 1 per 10k, up to 200k. But it seems to say if you go this route you can't spend karma for nuyen normally. It is probably too good which is why so many builds are showing it. but i can think a couple other almost always qualities as well. Whether that is because of them being too good, other qualities being really bad, not enough options its hard to say this early in the game.

One additional oddity and this is just a oddity it doesn't really matter, is that the bounty on you seems to equal the amount stolen, which is just bad math on the people with a vendettas part. I get sending a message but why spend the amount  you lost when you likely aren't even retrieving it.  I kind of think the bounty just shouldn't be there at all.  just know they are sending goons to get you. 

Lormyr

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« Reply #52 on: <08-21-20/1533:53> »
But bad math is normal for them

Truer words were never spoken, my friend.

This makes more sense to me than the out right contradictory 20 points at 10k, a chart showing 200k, and saying the max is 150k

Well the chart says it is the size of the bounty on your head, not how much money you got/stole. Minor detail though, as the rest still lines up.

When every character is simply better off taking the quality, it's too good.  200K Nuyen on a starting character is somewhere between C and B Priority.  So, 10 Metahuman Adjustment points, or 14 Attribute points or 22 Skill points....?  If there were qualities out there that did that, they would never make it to a Missions table. 

And at lower values it's trivial to manage the downside and it's flat out superior return compared to In Debt.  Mechanically, characters should really never take In Debit if Stolen Gear is an option.  And should probably never spend Karma on Nuyen. 

Obviously I'm all for rewarding system mastery but this particular quality basically lets you play Sum to 12 when everyone else is playing Sum to 10.  There isn't another quality even in shouting distance.

You're not wrong man. I agree that for the most part it is so good it's a must take. It's hardly the only quality that applies to though. If we are being completely blunt many of them are not balanced well for cost vs. effect of other comparable qualities.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling