NEWS

Lolsy Missions Build

  • 52 Replies
  • 1342 Views

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
« Reply #15 on: <08-13-20/2106:53> »
Well frequently the core book has a really anemic adept power list. I expect we will see some magic resistance powers in the magic book.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #16 on: <08-14-20/1205:09> »
Well frequently the core book has a really anemic adept power list. I expect we will see some magic resistance powers in the magic book.

Magic Resistance was that power, though, which is what makes me feel the likely hood of this is unlikely.

Unrelated, updated the build page to include the troll tax I forgot, the stolen gear cash not working for lifestyle that I overlooked and SSDR pointed out, and a brief design note to swap cyberhands for toxin extractor if you play with GMs who don't want to let those fly.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 4030
« Reply #17 on: <08-14-20/1250:39> »
So... another observation.  Opinion based this time:

thanks to buying exceptional attribute thrice, you can simultaneously have Body at max and Will and Int all at 6.

Is it REALLY worth 24 karma to have Will/Int both at 6 instead of 5 each?  Those extra dice are frikkin' expensive given how marginal the increase is from 5 dice to 6 dice.
Plus the "saved" attribute points could then go elsewhere.  And free up 2 more opportunity slots for different qualities.
« Last Edit: <08-14-20/1254:54> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #18 on: <08-14-20/1254:30> »
So... another observation.  Opinion based this time:

thanks to buying exception attribute thrice, you can simultaneously have Body at max and Will and Int all at 6.

Is it REALLY worth 24 karma to have Will/Int both at 6 instead of 5 each?  Those extra dice are frikkin' expensive for the marginal benefit.
Plus the "saved" attribute points could then go elsewhere.  And free up 2 more opportunity slots for different qualities.

IMO, it is generally only worth it for hyperspecialized builds. Since this build freely dumps 3 stats (1 due to strength having no value, and agility/reaction due to GelWeave reliance), it works out nicely in this particular case since all of his other attributes are already chargen capped but edge.

For more rounded builds, I agree with you. Working on two other builds to share later.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 4030
« Reply #19 on: <08-14-20/1256:35> »
Well, you're a troll with 10 body.  Even if you weren't "fluffed" (pun intended) as being super fat, having STR 1 is still begging for a GM to say you're encumbered just getting your fat ass up out of a chair.  Just because you CAN leave STR at 1 it doesn't mean you're immune from being told you're unable to hoist yourself up a stairwell.
« Last Edit: <08-14-20/1258:10> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #20 on: <08-14-20/1303:57> »
Well, you're a troll with 10 body.  Even if you weren't "fluffed" (pun intended) as being super fat, having STR 1 is still begging for a GM to say you're encumbered just getting your fat ass up out of a chair.  Just because you CAN leave STR at 1 it doesn't mean you're immune from being told you're unable to hoist yourself up a stairwell.

So just my opinion here, but IMO that would be pretty vindictive GMing. An attribute of 2 reflects average skill, so would represent below average, not crippled. Adding some RP elements about how you struggle to get out of chairs or like that would fun though. If someone was to play this character and you land with "that" GM, just politely excuse yourself and wait for a different (read: better) one.

My second counter to that would be despite being fat and below average strength, he is both in amazing health (body 10) and exceptionally athletic (8!). How does that logically work? I leave that for each observer to sort out. I play the game with the mechanics given to me.
« Last Edit: <08-14-20/1306:03> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 4030
« Reply #21 on: <08-14-20/1310:12> »
Even at STR 2, you'd have strength comparable to an average human.

How well would the average human get around if they packed on 300, 400 pounds to their frame without any increase to strength?

And STR 1 isn't average, it's BELOW average.  So, with the strength of a 98 pound weakling trying to animate a body the size of a troll... is it REALLY vindictive GMing to say you're having trouble going up stairs?

Besides... carrying capacity is an objective rule.  It may not be commonly enforced, but if you go out on thin ice you're asking for it to be.  Granted, carrying capacity is implicitly only talking about stuff beyond your potentially corpulent frame, but still how much do you think a set of troll sized clothes weighs?  How about ARMORED clothing in troll size?  STR 1 is pretty much encumbered all the time anyway... if you actually enforce that rule.

My second counter to that would be despite being fat and below average strength, he is both in amazing health (body 10) and exceptionally athletic (8!). How does that logically work? I leave that for each observer to sort out. I play the game with the mechanics given to me.

Thats getting into where, in a home game, I'd be 100% comfortable saying you're simply not allowed to have 8 Athletics while leaving your STR at 1.  Because, as you put it: "How does that logically work?" Exactly!  It doesn't*.

Of course those kinds of restrictions are well above and beyond the scope and appropriateness for SRM.


*EDIT: Ok, I CAN see a rationale for 8 Athletics and 1 STR: You're a former olympian who suffered a debilitating disease/injury, and you only went down to 1 STR after developing phenomenal athletics.
« Last Edit: <08-14-20/1328:31> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #22 on: <08-14-20/1333:03> »
How well would the average human get around if they packed on 300, 400 pounds to their frame without any increase to strength?

Very poorly. The average real life human of that size also doesn't have the game reality equivalent of an "elite pro" athletic capability, though. Those two things do not logically compute at all, but they do in the mechanics of this game world.

And STR 1 isn't average, it's BELOW average.

That is what I said above. No contest, I agree.

So, with the strength of a 98 pound weakling trying to animate a body the size of a troll... is it REALLY vindictive GMing to say you're having trouble going up stairs?

It depends on how it is implemented. If we are adding mechanical penalties where none exist in the game world, that is vindictive. GM doesn't like the way player build their PC, so GM is punishing them with game mechanics for it. It is the textbook definition of adversarial GMing.

If we are making notes about role-play elements, like he slowly struggles his way out of the chair, slowly struggles his way up the steps, ect. when it doesn't mechanically matter, then all of that is both totally cool and encouraged.

Besides... carrying capacity is an objective rule.  It may not be commonly enforced, but if you go out on thin ice you're asking for it to be.  Granted, carrying capacity is implicitly only talking about stuff beyond your potentially corpulent frame, but still how much do you think a set of troll sized clothes weighs?  How about ARMORED clothing in troll size?  STR 1 is pretty much encumbered all the time anyway... if you actually enforce that rule.

And this is part of the problem with incomplete rule sets, like assigning weight to items. With a lack of proper item weight / carrying capacity, I personally would resent receiving a heavy penalty over what is essentially non-existent mechanics. On the other hand, I personally would also be totally fine receiving reasonably light mechanical inconvenience. If we wanted to say Fat Larry is a bit slower due to his armor (in addition to the speed reduction the armor already imposes), I would be cool with that. If he walked around for hours in the armor and we wanted to have him make Body + Willpower rolls to resist Fatigue levels, I'd also be cool with that personally.

Now obviously if he actually tries to lift heavy things, despite having that titanic body + willpower dice pool for it, I would personally just say things like "Fat Larry makes a valiant attempt to help the strong guy lift the heavy thing, but after several seconds of huffing and wheezing, he resorts to just lethargically leaning his own mass against the side of the heavy thing, leaving strong guy to do all the work.".

*EDIT: Ok, I CAN see a rationale for 8 Athletics and 1 STR: You're a former olympian who suffered a debilitating disease/injury, and you only went down to 1 STR after developing phenomenal athletics.

Edit for your edit:

Yeah, that is one example of how one could apply some form of logic to make it more reasonable.

Personally, this is where I fall, both as a player and GM. My #1 object when GMing is to just make sure my players have fun. My #2 objective is running the rules as written, so that everyone learns those rules appropriately. So long as a character is legal, I will let absolutely anything fly without additional hardship, even if I personally don't like the build, because I want my player to have a good time playing what they designed.

As a player, character building is half of my whole fun in gaming. I also want to be permitted to play my legal character without added hassle that doesn't exist in the mechanics, unless I agree to them for any valid reason I may choose. Sometimes I design ridiculous but mechanically accurate characters like Fat Larry, sometimes I design ones that are far less controversial. The only consistent in my builds is that they will be min-maxed to some degree, because that is what I enjoy.

To each their own, though. Everyone should play in the way they have fun. If one feels the need to judge anyone else for their play style, there are conveniently lots of people who will share your personal views to play with.
« Last Edit: <08-14-20/1344:00> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Mycroft

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Chummer
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
« Reply #23 on: <08-14-20/1335:04> »
I am also in the boat of, "too many qualities." And I do see where the wording can be subject to interpretation on the "Step Three: Select Qualities" section, but in the "Step Four: Spend Customization Karma" the wording is more crisp around:

the limit of six qualities still applies

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #24 on: <08-14-20/1341:56> »
I am also in the boat of, "too many qualities." And I do see where the wording can be subject to interpretation on the "Step Three: Select Qualities" section, but in the "Step Four: Spend Customization Karma" the wording is more crisp around:

the limit of six qualities still applies

I can't speak on the intent of the rule, but if it is ran that way, many non-humans will have half or more of their options already chosen for them. I can't imagine that is intentional, but again, I didn't design or write it.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 4030
« Reply #25 on: <08-14-20/1410:04> »
Well the qualities you get for free, like Built Tough (1), shouldn't count against the six.

However it is very vague if you take that Built Tough (1) and advance it to (2+), should it count against one of the six NOW.  Until it's made explicitly clear, my personal stance is that players should assume it does (because imo you should always prepare for a GM to answer in the least liberal interpretation in organized play), but GMs should give players the benefit of the doubt if they fail to account for it in the six.  Of course if you have someone who's pushing the envelope, that'd end up meaning the answer is in effect "it doesn't".
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 794
« Reply #26 on: <08-14-20/1419:26> »
Well the qualities you get for free, like Built Tough (1), shouldn't count against the six.

However it is very vague if you take that Built Tough (1) and advance it to (2+), should it count against one of the six NOW.  Until it's made explicitly clear, my personal stance is that players should assume it does (because imo you should always prepare for a GM to answer in the least liberal interpretation in organized play), but GMs should give players the benefit of the doubt if they fail to account for it in the six.  Of course if you have someone who's pushing the envelope, that'd end up meaning the answer is in effect "it doesn't".

I mostly agree. Like I told Hobbes, that and cyberhands the only gray areas on the sheet. Both are irrelevant to the core build though, so it will work totally fine without them (better with toxin extractor anyhow really).
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9682
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #27 on: <08-14-20/1420:15> »
You're selecting Built Tough as quality, even if it's just improving a free racial quality. So then it no longer would be the freebie you obtained, so would count against the limit of 6. BT(1) is fine, BT(4) = a selected quality.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2887
« Reply #28 on: <08-14-20/1430:14> »
Well the qualities you get for free, like Built Tough (1), shouldn't count against the six.

However it is very vague if you take that Built Tough (1) and advance it to (2+), should it count against one of the six NOW.  Until it's made explicitly clear, my personal stance is that players should assume it does (because imo you should always prepare for a GM to answer in the least liberal interpretation in organized play), but GMs should give players the benefit of the doubt if they fail to account for it in the six.  Of course if you have someone who's pushing the envelope, that'd end up meaning the answer is in effect "it doesn't".

I mostly agree. Like I told Hobbes, that and cyberhands the only gray areas on the sheet. Both are irrelevant to the core build though, so it will work totally fine without them (better with toxin extractor anyhow really).

Personally I go with a general rule of "If you gained Karma or Spent Karma on a Quality, it's one of your Six". 

In Debt being the specific overriding the general at a 0 Karma cost, but still counts as one of the Six. 

And yeah, better off with the Toxin Extractor anyway.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
« Reply #29 on: <08-14-20/2110:47> »
Fro the strength to weight discussion, the only way the new system makes any sense is if you visualize the strength as their output past their ability to move.  So a 1 strength troll is technically stronger than a 1 strength human in that they move a 600 pound frame, but they still bench the same.  now personally I think the new metatype system is terrible due to this and other changes, but ships have sailed or whatever.