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SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification

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markelphoenix

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« on: <08-01-20/1851:44> »
In Cyberlimbs section, it states that cyber skulls do not have an agility or strength attribute. It does not mention Torsos not having agility or strength stat. Is this intentional? If so, when would you penalize a player to use the Torsos' lower stats if the Torsos str and agi score are less than their cyber arms and cyber legs?

Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #1 on: <08-02-20/2151:16> »
We play it like Cyber Skulls. 

Hope that helps.

Best,
SL
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <08-02-20/2246:48> »
The relevant rule is on pg 288:

Quote
Attributes for limbs may vary, but dice pools
are always built from the lowest attribute of all
the limbs unless the test solely involves that singular
location (gamemaster’s discretion).

The question at hand is in turn answered by asking more questions:

Does the task the character is performing require the use of more of your body than just the limb in question?
If "No": then use the stats of that limb.
If "Yes": then use the lowest stat of ANY involved body part, to include the cybertorso as it is a cyber"limb". 

Now very few physical acts do NOT involve your core/torso, but it's a generally accepted convention that an attack can be resolved via the attributes of a single limb.  So, the "gamemaster's discretion" is the key wildcard in this rule.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <08-03-20/0749:27> »
...ANY involved body part
Any involved limb, not body part.

Unless things changed in 6th edition a human body have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.


SR5 p. 455 Cyberlimbs
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs).


Edit. Nope. Same in SR6. A human body still have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.

SR6 p. cyberlimbs 288
Limbs are operable appendages, skulls are a shell but also offer neck and face movement, and a torso is casing for the ribs but also replaces all the muscles of the core (having abs of steel becomes a literal thing).
« Last Edit: <08-03-20/0755:34> by Xenon »

markelphoenix

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« Reply #4 on: <08-03-20/0818:58> »
...ANY involved body part
Any involved limb, not body part.

Unless things changed in 6th edition a human body have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.


SR5 p. 455 Cyberlimbs
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs).


Edit. Nope. Same in SR6. A human body still have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.

SR6 p. cyberlimbs 288
Limbs are operable appendages, skulls are a shell but also offer neck and face movement, and a torso is casing for the ribs but also replaces all the muscles of the core (having abs of steel becomes a literal thing).

At this point, I hope they add to Errata an explicit call of torso beside skull in regards to not having an Agility or Strength score.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <08-03-20/0919:35> »
...ANY involved body part
Any involved limb, not body part.

Unless things changed in 6th edition a human body have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.


SR5 p. 455 Cyberlimbs
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs).


Edit. Nope. Same in SR6. A human body still have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.

SR6 p. cyberlimbs 288
Limbs are operable appendages, skulls are a shell but also offer neck and face movement, and a torso is casing for the ribs but also replaces all the muscles of the core (having abs of steel becomes a literal thing).

Cybertorsos are a type of cyberlimb. 

In 6e, refer to page 288.  Under the cyberlimb section, it lists the types as Skull, Torso, Arms, Legs. 

I don't think there's any valid ground to stand on to try to say that a cybertorso is NOT a cyberlimb.

Ergo, the standard metahuman body has a potential SIX cyberlimbs.  Now unlike 5e we no longer have to average across all involved body parts... just take the weakest link in 6e for the dice pool.
« Last Edit: <08-03-20/1002:23> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #6 on: <08-03-20/1014:44> »
I don't think there's any valid ground to stand on to try to say that a cybertorso is NOT a cyberlimb.
Other than the fact that torsos are very definitely not limbs...

I mean, I get what you’re saying, and I’d rule that way myself. But the nomenclature could use changing to match this, if it is indeed the intent.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <08-03-20/1059:48> »
Torsos are not limbs, sure. But that's a non sequitur as the issue at hand involves neither torsos nor limbs, but cybertorsos and Cyberlimbs instead.

Cybertorsos are absolutely a form of cyberlimb. And therefore governed by the rules for Cyberlimbs.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #8 on: <08-03-20/1125:20> »
You can see why new players could be confused though, surely?

Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #9 on: <08-03-20/1445:35> »
SSD

Thanks for the call out.  I knew how it use to be but had a new player argue / rule book me as we were wrapping up a game.  I missed the muscle comment about torso p288, and will make the change I. Our game.  Additional, Penllawen make a good point.

Missing 5th edition has made me rusty.
Best,
SL
Si vis pacem, para bellum

markelphoenix

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« Reply #10 on: <08-03-20/1502:55> »
SSD

Thanks for the call out.  I knew how it use to be but had a new player argue / rule book me as we were wrapping up a game.  I missed the muscle comment about torso p288, and will make the change I. Our game.  Additional, Penllawen make a good point.

Missing 5th edition has made me rusty.
Best,
SL

Personally, I think best homerule is Torso is treated same as skull. Seems too prone to gm / player conflict on what does and doesn't require torso strength and agility

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <08-03-20/1536:50> »
Language in 6th edition is perhaps not very 'strict' and you can often no longer do a 'strict' reading of the rules it seems... :-/

But a *strict* reading of 5th edition stated that arms and legs were *limbs* while torso and skull where *shells*. And test were either using the lowest rating of all *limbs* involved (careful coordination) or the average rating of all *limbs* involved (no careful coordination needed). it specifically says *limbs* (which include arms and legs but not torso and skull) rather than *cyberlimbs* (which could perhaps also include torso and skull).

In 6th edition we now always use the lower rating (so we don't have to worry about when average values should be applied or not). And in 6th edition skull explicitly don't count (so we know that we don't have to worry about that either) - but that also mean that the intent seem to be that attribute values for torso now *do* count (at least for activities that involve the whole body; such as sprinting, climbing, swimming, etc).

But since cyberlimbs are now restricted to augmented maximum of +4 and since stacking armor don't really give you a benefit once you secured your tactical advantage I doubt that we will see many characters with full body replacements so the question how to resolve it is probably moot anyway.


In Cyberlimbs section, it states that cyber skulls do not have an agility or strength attribute. It does not mention Torsos not having agility or strength stat. Is this intentional? If so, when would you penalize a player to use the Torsos' lower stats if the Torsos str and agi score are less than their cyber arms and cyber legs?
In this case:

SR6 p. 290 Cyberlimb Accessories - Attribute Increase
If an activity could reasonably be interpreted to use the whole body in some way (e.g., sprinting, climbing, swimming), then the cyberlimb increase would not apply.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <08-03-20/1602:35> »
The issue of this cyberlimb completely replacing all biological matter and that cyberlimb being a shell and leaving wet stuff inside is irrelevant to the question of "is the shell a cyberlimb".

Whether any meat remains behind is irrelevant to whether a cybertorso is a cyberlimb or not.

Where are the rules for cybertorsos?  Page 288.  More specifically, they're a nested subtype inside the cyberlimb heading.  They're a hierarchical peer to cyber arms and cyber legs. While literal readings can be landmined, typing cybertorsos as a kind of cyberlimb is not a misreading.  The intent isn't unclear. 

Indeed, if you were to argue that cybertorsos are NOT a cyberlimb despite being nested as a type under that heading, then by that same argument a Combat Axe is NOT a Blades weapon.

Frankly, that argument (just because it's nested under that type doesn't mean it's one of those types) is nonsense.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <08-03-20/1614:18> »
Pedantry alert... this tangent won't be very much fun.  Just a heads up for people who only cared about the basic question on the face of the original post...

... And in 6th edition skull explicitly don't count (so we know that we don't have to worry about that either) - but that also mean that the intent seem to be that attribute values for torso now *do* count (at least for activities that involve the whole body; such as sprinting, climbing, swimming, etc).

Actually, the rule is:

"Note that Strength and Agility increases have
no effect when they are included in a cyberskull."

Not that "you don't count the Skull's relevance to an action if, somehow, the head's Strength or Agility is relevant to the action".  So if, for example, you're trying to bite someone, the cyberskull's attributes are pegged at the baseline 2 and if you do improve them, the increased value is ignored.

So even if you were to expand that rule to the torso, it wouldn't mean you ignore the torso's relevance in any physical action... you'd be ignoring any values beyond 2.  Obviously, this is a hypothetical rule expansion I heartily recommend against.
« Last Edit: <08-03-20/1616:34> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #14 on: <08-03-20/1614:59> »
Honestly, this just reinforces my cyberlimbs are trash view.