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SR6 Analytical Mind and Hermetic Mages

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markelphoenix

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« on: <07-24-20/0043:24> »
So, does it count for Hermetic Drain Test? Logic + Willpower....is that 'Logic Based test', or does it only account for {Skill} + Logic rolls, where Logic is the 'Base' attribute for the roll?

Darksithmstr

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« Reply #1 on: <07-24-20/0234:33> »
I think it applies to an action you take not a defensive roll.  Like a Matrix action is only when you take the action not defend against someone.  I could be wrong.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <07-24-20/0241:27> »
I think it applies to an action you take not a defensive roll.  Like a Matrix action is only when you take the action not defend against someone.  I could be wrong.
Honestly, some things like Analytical Mind, Diagnostics and Analyze Device have been problems due to their fluff and their mechanics clashing. AM is broken in SR6 anyway, just compare it to Photographic Memory. So no matter the RAW or RAI, it should be nerfed like crazy. I briefly went into those here: https://shadowland.blog/2020/05/10/houserules-edge-qualities-etc
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Lormyr

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« Reply #3 on: <07-24-20/0523:58> »
It doesn't say anything about actions. The game mechanics wording is very clear: if you roll Logic as part of any test, you get the benefit.

Now if you want to discuss if that is a problem or not, that topic is way more open to debate.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #4 on: <07-24-20/1001:33> »
The way Analytical Mind is worded, a Hermetic mage gets the point of Edge for Drain tests, yes.

Banshee

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« Reply #5 on: <07-24-20/1034:16> »
For what it's worth we submitted errata that changed it to skill test ... the intention was not for it to apply to drain
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Catalyst Demo Team

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <07-24-20/1043:18> »
Until such time it can be made official... I think that makes an absolutely super house rule.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #7 on: <07-24-20/1052:37> »
Now if you want to discuss if that is a problem or not, that topic is way more open to debate.
Well, I donít think it is, because I donít think thereís any debate that itís a problem :)

Lormyr

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« Reply #8 on: <07-24-20/1128:44> »
Now if you want to discuss if that is a problem or not, that topic is way more open to debate.
Well, I donít think it is, because I donít think thereís any debate that itís a problem :)

God help me I am agreeing with Mikey again, but he is right. Do I think that quality is a problem stand alone? No. But it is a problem compared to Photographic Memory, which is a strictly inferior quality that for some insane reason costs four times as much. One of those dead weight options of poor design as I like to call them.

I think the better option to nerfing Analytical Mind is to raise its cost and just delete Photographic Memory, but that would be a good design decision, so. . .(yeah I said it, I am not in a coddling mood today)
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

markelphoenix

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« Reply #9 on: <07-24-20/2021:10> »
For what it's worth we submitted errata that changed it to skill test ... the intention was not for it to apply to drain

So, submitted and actively rejected? Submitted and accepted for later errata? Submitted for prior errata without being included (passively rejected)?

Kreistor

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« Reply #10 on: <07-24-20/2122:07> »
When the authors wanted a roll to be a test, they use that term. Analytical Mind applies to "logic based tests" not logic based rolls. The Drain sections (two of them) say to make a roll, not a test. The designers wind up using a lot more words and wasting ink and paper to present it the way they did. I believe the intent was that Analytical Mind should not apply to Drain, and the technical reading does not permit it.

If Analytic Mind were to apply to Drain, it would be a cheap Edge machine. Many will be recasting buffs at the start of the day anyway, so those casters have the opportunity to pound out massive Edge that non-casters cannot. Allowing it to apply creates significant unfairness, or the technical term, imbalance.

Banshee

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« Reply #11 on: <07-24-20/2128:21> »
For what it's worth we submitted errata that changed it to skill test ... the intention was not for it to apply to drain

So, submitted and actively rejected? Submitted and accepted for later errata? Submitted for prior errata without being included (passively rejected)?

I wish I could say ... all I know is that we discussed it and submitted. I never saw any feedback
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

markelphoenix

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« Reply #12 on: <07-24-20/2214:08> »
When the authors wanted a roll to be a test, they use that term. Analytical Mind applies to "logic based tests" not logic based rolls. The Drain sections (two of them) say to make a roll, not a test. The designers wind up using a lot more words and wasting ink and paper to present it the way they did. I believe the intent was that Analytical Mind should not apply to Drain, and the technical reading does not permit it.

If Analytic Mind were to apply to Drain, it would be a cheap Edge machine. Many will be recasting buffs at the start of the day anyway, so those casters have the opportunity to pound out massive Edge that non-casters cannot. Allowing it to apply creates significant unfairness, or the technical term, imbalance.

Uhhh...none casters, you mean, like Deckers? Deckers can take a series of simple Matrix actions and get Edge on every roll.....This includes legal ones. Drain tests at least carry the risk of damaging yourself.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <07-24-20/2325:43> »
When the authors wanted a roll to be a test, they use that term. Analytical Mind applies to "logic based tests" not logic based rolls....

I've been down that exact rabbit hole.

Drain resistance is indeed a kind of test.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: <07-25-20/0330:36> »
When the authors wanted a roll to be a test, they use that term. Analytical Mind applies to "logic based tests" not logic based rolls.
"Test" is also not good as "Drain Resistance Test" is an actual Thing (SR6 p. 155 and SR6 p. 167). We already had this discussion when it came to the Indomitable positive quality.

"Skill Test", as Banshee suggested above, would be the more correct way forward (that is how I will treat it anyway).