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S6 Spirit Powers

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Xenon

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« Reply #15 on: <07-24-20/1522:27> »
While projecting the magician count as a wholly astral entity (just like a a spirit that is not using materialization) and (just as a spirit that is not using materialization) can not cast any spells on the physical plane.

If a spirit can not sustain a physical power on the physical plane after dematerialization then a magician can not sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting.

If a magician can sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting then a spirit can sustain a physical power on the physical plane after projecting.

There are arguments both ways and I don't really care ether way, but I do think your reading need to be consistent.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #16 on: <07-24-20/1540:59> »
While projecting the magician count as a wholly astral entity (just like a a spirit that is not using materialization) and (just as a spirit that is not using materialization) can not cast any spells on the physical plane.

If a spirit can not sustain a physical power on the physical plane after dematerialization then a magician can not sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting.

If a magician can sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting then a spirit can sustain a physical power on the physical plane after projecting.

There are arguments both ways and I don't really care ether way, but I do think your reading need to be consistent.

Indeed.  It's undescribed as to whether you can keep sustaining a physical spell after projecting.  It stands to reason that maybe you can sustain a mana spell, but if you cast it on yourself does it remain with your body or come with you when you project?  Probably should come with your projecting form, but again it's undescribed.  (I.E. your connection to your body is not SEVERED by projecting your aura elsewhere...)

and I'm strongly entrenched in the opinion that if the spirit must be materialized to begin using a some power, it must remain so to continue using that power.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #17 on: <07-24-20/1611:48> »
A grenade chucked into the back of the Van is a considerable inconvenience to an Astral projecting mage.  Not so much a Spirit on the Astral plane. 

There is a distinct mechanical difference between an Astral Mage and an Astral Spirit.  An Astral projecting mage is mechanically similar to a VR Matrix character.  The character's perception is shifted to a different plane and often a different "place".  But the Meat sack is still physically somewhere and needs to be tended to in some way.  Stuffed in a Troll's back pack or dumped in the back seat or whatever. 

An Astral Mage still has Foci, and links to those Foci, and a Signature that can be tracked back to the Physical body.  An Astral Spirit has none of that.  Foci would be left behind on the physical plane and arguably stop working.   A Spirit's signature isn't going to lead you back to the Spirits physical form if the Spirit is on the Astral Plane. 

Dual Nature, Astral Projecting, and Astral Spirit are three mechanically different things with different rules.

An Astral projected mage sustaining a spell runs the risk of someone running down the signature to a helpless body.

If you need in game metaphysics, the body matters.  The body, being on the physical plane, is able to sustain the spell.  The Astral Spirit, without any physical presence, has no direct link to the physical plane and can't manipulate any physical energies on that plane. 

RAW arguments:  A spirit needs to be on the physical plane to use a P power.  Someone gaining a benefit from that power is, by definition, using that power.  If the Spirit is not on the physical plane, a P Power can't be sustained.  Or if you'd rather, the P Power gives no benefit.  If you want to say it's still sustained and will "re-activate" when / if the Spirit manifests on the Physical plane again, sure, whatever. 

RAW: A mage can sustain a spell, and they take a penalty for doing so.  There are no other restrictions on sustaining.  If a mage was meant to stop sustaining a spell when they went Astral, either the Sustaining rules should state the Astral Projecting exception.  Or, the Astral Projection rules should state "Sustained spells are ended or suspended."

RAW its sometimes okay to assume the lack of an exception is permission to do something.  The rules don't clearly state that you can sustain a spell while driving, for example.  I don't think anyone is going to argue that sustained spells quit when a mage is driving.

And quick strawman, would you argue that Quickened spells are stopped when a Mage Astral Projects?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #18 on: <07-24-20/1631:10> »
And quick strawman, would you argue that Quickened spells are stopped when a Mage Astral Projects?

I think it's pretty cut and dried that a quickened physical spell should stay on the aura-less body.  There's considerable gray area as to whether a quickened mana spell should stay on the body or go with the aura, though.


And I also feel that there's not much parallel between sustained spells and quickened spells with regards to the question of projecting.  There's ample room for quickened, mentally sustained, and sustained via foci to all have different answers.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #19 on: <07-24-20/1700:22> »
Quickening actually specifically states that the spell now sustains itself, so I believe that makes it quite clear that the mage's current condition/location compared to location at the time of casting is irrelevant. The spell works.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

markelphoenix

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« Reply #20 on: <07-24-20/2016:54> »
I don't suppose they're still doing Errata for CRB where this could be stated directly?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #21 on: <07-24-20/2123:02> »
I don't suppose they're still doing Errata for CRB where this could be stated directly?

*cries in NDA*
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #22 on: <07-25-20/0245:55> »
If a spell have a LOS requirement then the magician need to have LOS at the time of casting. The magician does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the spell once it is already cast.

It doesn't say that a sustained spell have to be recast if a magician project into the astral plane. On the other hand, it also doesn't say that a spell that was originally cast on the physical plane can still be sustained if the magician project into the astral plane. This part is not clear and can be read in different ways (but since there is no mentioning about sustaining no longer working when you start to project I personally read it as if you may still sustain the spell on the physical plane even after projecting into the astral plane - projecting prevent the magician from casting physical spells, not sustaining them).

But no matter how the sustaining part is resolved it is clear that to recast a physical spell the magician would have to return to the physical plane in order to do so.



If a critter power have a LOS requirement then the critter need to have LOS at the time of using the power. The critter does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the critter power once it is already used.

It doesn't say that a sustained critter power have to be reused if a critter de-materialize back into the astral plane. On the other hand, it also doesn't say that a critter power that was originally used on the physical plane can still be sustained if the critter de-materialize back into the astral plane. This part is not clear and can be read in different ways (but since there is no mentioning about sustaining no longer working when the critter de-materialize I personally read it as if it may still sustain the critter power on the physical plane even after de-materializing back into the astral plane - de-materialize prevent the critter from using physical critter powers, not sustaining them).

But no matter how the sustaining part is resolved it is clear that to reuse a physical critter power the critter would have to return to the physical plane in order to do so.

Hobbes

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« Reply #23 on: <07-25-20/0943:33> »
Spells and Powers can be sustained without LOS. 

P.221

 Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical (P). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or to affect astral forms.

If the Spirit is in Astral space, it can't use P type powers.  And I define "use" as any time the Target of the Power is effected by the Power. 

Weather or not the Spirit has to re-target/re-activate after popping off to Astral space and back is unclear.  And I can't think of a single time it's ever come up in 30+ years of Shadowrun  ; )   I think it's safe to let the GM at the table handle that one.   


Xenon

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« Reply #24 on: <07-25-20/1032:06> »
Spells and Powers can be sustained without LOS.
Agreed.


If the Spirit is in Astral space, it can't use P type powers. 
Agreed.

The critter can not Use physical critter powers in Astral Space.
Same as a projecting magician can not cast physical spells in Astral Space.


And I define "use" as any time the Target of the Power is effected by the Power. 
There is a difference between casting a spell and sustaining a spell.
There is also a difference between using a critter power and sustaining a critter power.

To cast a physical spell with LOS requirement you need to be on the physical plane and naturally see the target you are trying to affect.

To use a physical power with LOS requirement you need to be on the physical plane and naturally see the target you are trying to affect.

To sustain a spell you don't have to maintain LOS (and, depending on your reading, you can or cannot leave the physical plane while still sustaining it).

To sustain] a critter power you don't have to maintain LOS (and, depending on your reading, you can or cannot leave the physical plane while still sustaining it).


And I can't think of a single time it's ever come up in 30+ years of Shadowrun  ; )   I think it's safe to let the GM at the table handle that one.
Same and Agreed.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #25 on: <07-25-20/1036:33> »
If the Spirit is in Astral space, it can't use P type powers. 
Agreed.

The critter can not Use physical critter powers in Astral Space.
Same as a projecting magician can not cast physical spells in Astral Space.

Sustaining a power IS using a power.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #26 on: <07-25-20/1220:18> »
Sustaining a power IS using a power.
I disagree.

Using a power is when you activate/trigger/use/target the power.

Sustaining a power is after the power takes hold of its target.
By now you are no longer activating/triggering/using/targeting the power.
You are [just] sustaining it.

SR5 p. 394 Powers - Duration
Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort or cost. Because these powers are innate, the critter is not subject to any strain or modifiers for keeping the effect going the way sustained spells do—although normal sustaining rules apply if the critter casts and maintains a spell through Sorcery. Even taking damage will not distract the critter from its ability to sustain. As with sustained spells, line of sight does not have to be maintained after the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a number of powers (or multiple uses of the same power) at one time equal to their Magic.

SR5 p. 395 Concealment
The effect lasts until the target is spotted or the critter stops sustaining the power.


Edit:
When it comes to activating/triggering/using/targeting a power on the physical plane it is clear that you need to be present on the physical plane and it is also clear that in order to activate/trigger/use/target a LOS power you need to have LOS to the target.

SR5 p. 394 Powers
In order for a critter to use a power against a target, they have to be in the same state, either astral or physical.

SR5 p. 394 Powers - Range
All powers have a range; this is listed as Line of Sight (LOS), Touch, or Self (the power affects only the critter itself). The Line of Sight rules for spellcasting (p. 281) also apply to critter powers. Unless otherwise noted, a power may only be used on one target at a time.


Sustaining a critter power seem to be different from the act of activating/triggering/using/targeting a critter power.
Same as sustaining a spell seem to be different from the act of casting a spell.
« Last Edit: <07-25-20/1301:42> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #27 on: <07-25-20/1443:47> »
In my view it's more of a prima facie situation.

"Are you USING a power while you're sustaining it?"

The answer cannot be "no".  It must be "yes."

Therefore you're "using" a power while sustaining it, and you can't use physical powers on the astral.  End of discussion, in my view.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #28 on: <07-26-20/0939:22> »
To Use a LOS power you need LOS
To Sustain it you don't need LOS

We are going around in circles.
Let us agree to disagree.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #29 on: <07-28-20/1258:13> »
A grenade chucked into the back of the Van is a considerable inconvenience to an Astral projecting mage.  Not so much a Spirit on the Astral plane. 

There is a distinct mechanical difference between an Astral Mage and an Astral Spirit.  An Astral projecting mage is mechanically similar to a VR Matrix character.  The character's perception is shifted to a different plane and often a different "place".  But the Meat sack is still physically somewhere and needs to be tended to in some way.  Stuffed in a Troll's back pack or dumped in the back seat or whatever. 

An Astral Mage still has Foci, and links to those Foci, and a Signature that can be tracked back to the Physical body.  An Astral Spirit has none of that.  Foci would be left behind on the physical plane and arguably stop working.   A Spirit's signature isn't going to lead you back to the Spirits physical form if the Spirit is on the Astral Plane. 

Dual Nature, Astral Projecting, and Astral Spirit are three mechanically different things with different rules.

An Astral projected mage sustaining a spell runs the risk of someone running down the signature to a helpless body.

If you need in game metaphysics, the body matters.  The body, being on the physical plane, is able to sustain the spell.  The Astral Spirit, without any physical presence, has no direct link to the physical plane and can't manipulate any physical energies on that plane. 

RAW arguments:  A spirit needs to be on the physical plane to use a P power.  Someone gaining a benefit from that power is, by definition, using that power.  If the Spirit is not on the physical plane, a P Power can't be sustained.  Or if you'd rather, the P Power gives no benefit.  If you want to say it's still sustained and will "re-activate" when / if the Spirit manifests on the Physical plane again, sure, whatever. 

RAW: A mage can sustain a spell, and they take a penalty for doing so.  There are no other restrictions on sustaining.  If a mage was meant to stop sustaining a spell when they went Astral, either the Sustaining rules should state the Astral Projecting exception.  Or, the Astral Projection rules should state "Sustained spells are ended or suspended."

RAW its sometimes okay to assume the lack of an exception is permission to do something.  The rules don't clearly state that you can sustain a spell while driving, for example.  I don't think anyone is going to argue that sustained spells quit when a mage is driving.

And quick strawman, would you argue that Quickened spells are stopped when a Mage Astral Projects?


I'd also say the weapon focus is a explicit example of the connection the astral body has to the physical. If it was an exception it would have been stated that way, as opposed to more of a reminder since the stabby part has a psychical form.

2nd time i tried to type on my work laptop to answer something I was reading on my home pc in the lat 10 minutes woo.