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S6 Spirit Powers

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markelphoenix

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« on: <07-22-20/2304:50> »
Do spirits have to manifest to use powers?

Do spirits have to stay manifested to sustain a power, for example, Concealment?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <07-22-20/2316:42> »
SR6 did not explain the distinction/barrier between Astral and Physical planes to my satisfaction.

The intent is that affecting something on one plane requires the caster/spirit to be on that same plane.  Isn't explicitly said, though.

So yes the spirit is supposed to have to manifest before it can touch a target that has no astral presence, whether that touch is for good or for harm.  Of course dual natured critters are simultaneously on both planes, so a spirit wouldn't have to manifest to put concealment on say, a pack of ghouls...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <07-23-20/0330:16> »
Materialize. Manifest won't work.

Quote from: p160 Sixth World
A manifesting
astral projection has no physical presence,
meaning they cannot interact with the
physical world, and they are not captured on
any recording equipment. You also cannot
cast spells at targets solely on the physical
plane, but you can communicate with the
people in the vicinity as if you were there.

This section backs the whole 'got to be on the plane to impact it', though it should have also been mentioned elsewhere for clarity. It is, however, stated very clearly here. If even Manifesting doesn't suffice, there's no way just being on the astral works.

As for Concealment:
Quote from: p221 Powers
Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical
(P). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets,
whereas physical powers cannot be used in
astral space or to affect astral forms.

Seeing as how Concealment is a Physical Power, I'd argue that yes, a Spirit must Materialize to Conceal anyone. They can't do it from astral space, even not to buff a dual-natured entity.
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markelphoenix

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« Reply #3 on: <07-23-20/0828:10> »
Materialize. Manifest won't work.

Quote from: p160 Sixth World
A manifesting
astral projection has no physical presence,
meaning they cannot interact with the
physical world, and they are not captured on
any recording equipment. You also cannot
cast spells at targets solely on the physical
plane, but you can communicate with the
people in the vicinity as if you were there.

This section backs the whole 'got to be on the plane to impact it', though it should have also been mentioned elsewhere for clarity. It is, however, stated very clearly here. If even Manifesting doesn't suffice, there's no way just being on the astral works.

As for Concealment:
Quote from: p221 Powers
Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical
(P). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets,
whereas physical powers cannot be used in
astral space or to affect astral forms.

Seeing as how Concealment is a Physical Power, I'd argue that yes, a Spirit must Materialize to Conceal anyone. They can't do it from astral space, even not to buff a dual-natured entity.

But what about sutaining it? That's what I am trying to understand RAW. Yes, it appears, Conceals, but does it have to stay manifested to sustain? Looking for the best RAW to that, if it exists.

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <07-23-20/1453:05> »
Do spirits have to manifest to use powers?

Do spirits have to stay manifested to sustain a power, for example, Concealment?
I think you are confusing manifesting with materialization.

Concealment (specifically) is a Physical power which mean it can only be used on a target that have a physical body and it can only be used if the spirit materialize (not manifest) into the physical plane.


But what about sutaining it? That's what I am trying to understand RAW. Yes, it appears, Conceals, but does it have to stay manifested to sustain?
You keep typing manifesting rather than materializing...

A spirit cannot use the Concealment power while manifesting. This is RAW.

Unlike materialization, manifesting does not make the spirit dual natured.
While manifesting the spirit does not have a physical form.
Without physical form it cannot use physical powers.

Hobbes

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« Reply #5 on: <07-23-20/1504:58> »
I would argue very strongly that Maintaining a Power is using a Power.  So a Spirit that has not Materialized on the Physical Plane could not Sustain a Physical Power, like Concealment or Movement. 

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <07-23-20/1516:27> »
The question of casting spells on a physical target then sustaining them after projecting out of your body is maddengly unanswerable.  It never got a firm answer in 5e, either.

A spirit using the concealment power then de-materializing (thanks MC, I have a penchant for getting those backwards) is basically the same issue in reverse.

My belief is that if you can't do the thing while projecting (or not being materialized), then you shouldn't be able to sustain the thing while projecting (or not being materialized).  Maybe one day I'll get my wish and see it codified explicitly, but until then... that's my opinion on how it SHOULD be.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #7 on: <07-23-20/1547:32> »
I think it's a player perception issue.  You wouldn't ask if a Spirit on the Astral plane could maintain Psychokinesis, Engulf, or some other "Active" seeming power.  It's typically the "Passive" seeming powers that folks want to question. 

If you're maintaining a power, you're clearly using the power, shouldn't matter what that power is.  Can't use, therefore, can't maintain a Physical power if the Spirit is on the Astral Plane, whichever tense of Manifestation that is...  ; )

To me it seems clear, but I'm probably in the minority. 

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <07-23-20/1754:06> »
I guess there are good arguments both ways.

This is how I see it;

You need line of sight to cast a LOS spell on a subject.
You typically don't need to maintain LOS on the subject while sustaining the spell.


I see no reason why critter powers should not work in the same manner...

The critter need to be on the physical plane to use a physical power.
It don't(?) need to remain on the physical plane while sustaining the power.

Hobbes

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« Reply #9 on: <07-23-20/2012:41> »
If someone is gaining the benefit of a Concealment or Guard or Movement Power from a Spirit, the Spirit is clearly using that power, ergo, Spirit must be Materialized on the Physical plane to use a P power. 

If you need a mechanical analogy, it's more like Wireless bonuses.  If you want your Wireless bonus, you have to turn on Wireless.  If you want a Spirit to use a P Power, it's got to Materialize on the Physical plane.  If the Spirit pops off to the Astral plane, the P powers stop working.  M powers still work and there are enough of those to go around.  Animal Control FTW.  Pretty sure you could complete most Missions games successfully with just Animal Control....

(Edit: Animal Control, Sensor Tags set to 60 Second bursts, Pepper Punch / Flash Bang Grenades and tiny little rodent suicide bombers/bio drones...)

Totally IMO and the way I've always run things.
« Last Edit: <07-23-20/2044:50> by Hobbes »

markelphoenix

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« Reply #10 on: <07-24-20/0040:42> »
If someone is gaining the benefit of a Concealment or Guard or Movement Power from a Spirit, the Spirit is clearly using that power, ergo, Spirit must be Materialized on the Physical plane to use a P power. 

If you need a mechanical analogy, it's more like Wireless bonuses.  If you want your Wireless bonus, you have to turn on Wireless.  If you want a Spirit to use a P Power, it's got to Materialize on the Physical plane.  If the Spirit pops off to the Astral plane, the P powers stop working.  M powers still work and there are enough of those to go around.  Animal Control FTW.  Pretty sure you could complete most Missions games successfully with just Animal Control....

(Edit: Animal Control, Sensor Tags set to 60 Second bursts, Pepper Punch / Flash Bang Grenades and tiny little rodent suicide bombers/bio drones...)

Totally IMO and the way I've always run things.

So for Concealment, take into account the bod rating of the spirit because you'll want the spirit to conceal themselves as well.

Hobbes

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« Reply #11 on: <07-24-20/0959:41> »
If the Spirit is physically close then, yes, you'll want it to conceal itself.  Or it can wait in the Van and sustain a bunch of powers.  Either way. 

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <07-24-20/1226:13> »
(By that reading a magician can also no longer cast improved invisibility on the street samurai and then astrally project while still sustaining.....)

I am fine either way, just as long as you keep it consistent ;-)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <07-24-20/1234:09> »
(By that reading a magician can also no longer cast improved invisibility on the street samurai and then astrally project while still sustaining.....)

I am fine either way, just as long as you keep it consistent ;-)

I'm not convinced you ever could do that in 5e.  "Nothing says you can't" does not trump "Nothing says you can", after all.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #14 on: <07-24-20/1340:09> »
(By that reading a magician can also no longer cast improved invisibility on the street samurai and then astrally project while still sustaining.....)

I am fine either way, just as long as you keep it consistent ;-)

Magician's Meat Sack is still in the physical plane, so Astral Projection and Materialization are not the same.