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State of 6e today

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #45 on: <06-11-20/0229:40> »
What kind of spell was it, and why was there a problem casting it at a vehicle? An indirect physical combat spell? Was the vehicle uncontrolled, or was the driver actively evading the attack?

If you decelerate safely, you only get to a stop slowly, yes. If you smash the brakes hard, it's obviously not safe, so the GM can call for a Handling test, at a threshold modifier of their choosing. So if it's a simple brake, they can just modify the threshold to 1 if they want. If it's a tricky one, they could make the test harder to pass. If you fail it, you face a crash test.

Full Bug Spirit stats always are in the Magic Book, but I can imagine it's frustrating a book using them only offers partial stats.

Firing Squad takes place over 1 year after Cutting Black starts, so it's not that strange that by then the Shadowcast talks about it. Lore in Crunch books is important to me, because otherwise all you have is a boring catalog. It's the lore tidbits that make Shadowrun more interesting than D&D for me.
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Bishop75

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« Reply #46 on: <06-11-20/1037:35> »
What kind of spell was it, and why was there a problem casting it at a vehicle? An indirect physical combat spell? Was the vehicle uncontrolled, or was the driver actively evading the attack?

If you decelerate safely, you only get to a stop slowly, yes. If you smash the brakes hard, it's obviously not safe, so the GM can call for a Handling test, at a threshold modifier of their choosing. So if it's a simple brake, they can just modify the threshold to 1 if they want. If it's a tricky one, they could make the test harder to pass. If you fail it, you face a crash test.

Full Bug Spirit stats always are in the Magic Book, but I can imagine it's frustrating a book using them only offers partial stats.

Firing Squad takes place over 1 year after Cutting Black starts, so it's not that strange that by then the Shadowcast talks about it. Lore in Crunch books is important to me, because otherwise all you have is a boring catalog. It's the lore tidbits that make Shadowrun more interesting than D&D for me.

I don't want to be insulting, but your answer to all 3 of my points was "The GM needs to make up a rule or find something on the internet" Which was exactly my point. I'm ok with that, I'm an experienced SR GM. But the 16 year kid who just bought a copy of SR6, and might have a chance to become the next me (a 25 year customer), is just going to put his book down, suck up his lost 25 bucks and move on. Having bought a game rule book, one should not have to search the internet and find a forum to figure out how it's meant to be used.

The problem here, again, no offence intended (I'm Canadian, I'm genetically incapable of trying to cause offence) is the the quality of the SR6 product is not up the expectation of the consumers. It's a simple as that. Don't be offended. We all make mistakes. The concept was great and there are many parts of SR6 that are to be commended. But this is ShadowRun's Windows 8 (I want my start button back) or VW diesel emission scandal. It's all over the forums. Catalyst can a) bury their head in the sand or b) be proactive and many save some customers.

IF they want to be proactive, there are a number of steps they can take.

1) Admit your sins. Admit the system as released is flawed and tell people what you're going to do about it. A lot of Catalyst's customer buy direct... poll them. Find if/how they are using the game.

2) Stop selling the 6ed core book now, immediately. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it's about communicating to customers that you've heard them and you care.

3) Move the development budget from new product to fixing what exists. Delay new product launches.

4) Communicate a plan to your customers. Set expectations about what you intend to do. (i.e. no wholesale changes to the system or elimination of the AR/DR/Edge mechanic.)

5) Leverage the passionate people on this board and others. Many here are already actively trying to point out issues. No one seems to be listening. Setting up virtual, volunteer, working  groups to tackles different parts of the system. It might fail horribly, but you might get something out of it. At least people will feel heard.

6) Produce a core rules supplement. Taking the time and effort to re-write the core rule book (v. 6.1, or windows 8.1) can wait. A rules, explanations and clarifications supplement should be the goal. This has to be much more expansive than the the errata.

Get this all done within the next 60 days and Catalyst stands a good chance of saving SR. If not, I'm afraid the system will die on the vine. All us old geezers will eventually walk away and the new kids won't take our place.

There... normally a marketing consultant would charge a small fortune for that bit of advice. Where do I send my invoice. :-)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #47 on: <06-11-20/1204:10> »
Actually, answer #1 was asking you about the situation, since otherwise there's no way for me to know whether the situation actually can be found in the rules. #2 draws its conclusions directly from RAW. So I disagree with your conclusion that I'm just telling you to make things up.

As for your suggestions:

#1: What about the people who essentially say 'get rid of all the new mechanics, because they rub me the wrong way'?
#2: So, tell stores to stop selling the book? How is that something Shadowrun could ever recover from?
#3: So you're saying 'no book is allowed to come out until you are done bringing out errata'? Why? The errata process doesn't distract from the book production process.
#4: Well, those I'd consider obvious, but more public clarity would always be nice.
#5: So you believe the current Errata and FAQ volunteer teams do not suffice and need to be disbanded?
#6: Is there a compelling reason why this has to be a complete book rewrite, with significant editing and printing costs and significant printing delay, rather than the ongoing under-wraps FAQ project? And wouldn't you in that case need to set up a massive system to allow converting/replacing the current physical rulebooks, which adds even more burden?

I understand you have frustrations and good intent, but honestly I think that if CGL were to follow your suggestion, it would be the 100% guaranteed end of Shadowrun instead, and I really don't understand why you're completely ignoring the Errata and FAQ volunteers.
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adzling

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« Reply #48 on: <06-11-20/1207:37> »

IF they want to be proactive, there are a number of steps they can take.

1) Admit your sins. Admit the system as released is flawed and tell people what you're going to do about it. A lot of Catalyst's customer buy direct... poll them. Find if/how they are using the game.

2) Stop selling the 6ed core book now, immediately. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it's about communicating to customers that you've heard them and you care.

3) Move the development budget from new product to fixing what exists. Delay new product launches.

4) Communicate a plan to your customers. Set expectations about what you intend to do. (i.e. no wholesale changes to the system or elimination of the AR/DR/Edge mechanic.)

5) Leverage the passionate people on this board and others. Many here are already actively trying to point out issues. No one seems to be listening. Setting up virtual, volunteer, working  groups to tackles different parts of the system. It might fail horribly, but you might get something out of it. At least people will feel heard.

6) Produce a core rules supplement. Taking the time and effort to re-write the core rule book (v. 6.1, or windows 8.1) can wait. A rules, explanations and clarifications supplement should be the goal. This has to be much more expansive than the the errata.

Get this all done within the next 60 days and Catalyst stands a good chance of saving SR. If not, I'm afraid the system will die on the vine. All us old geezers will eventually walk away and the new kids won't take our place.

This is one of the most hilarious jokes I have ever heard, well done my man, well done.
Clearly you don't know Catalyst the company ;-)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #49 on: <06-11-20/1211:27> »
Speaking of the errata team: Despite one of their members repeatedly breaking NDA and deliberately posting information about the contents of SR6 CRB when it wasn't released yet, the errata team is still going strong. I know they submit far more than makes it through, and it would be real nice if JM Hardy could let us know how much of the submitted content falls under 'nope' vs 'considering' vs 'should rewrite this a bit'. We should definitely give an applause for their hard work, even if I personally disagree with some of the suggestions. :P
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Lormyr

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« Reply #50 on: <06-11-20/1240:30> »
The errata team does a great job, but are also hamstringed by Hardy and/or the other powers that be.

I find Bishop75's observations are quite sound overall, but most of Mikey's counterpoints are also fair. The chance to truly make this edition great was during inception and development, and thus has come and gone. For those of us that actively dislike it, I think the best that can be managed at this point by the actions Catalyst is willing to take will be to make the system palatable for us. If that were done though (unlikely), I do wonder it would do for those who happen to like the new system.

Granted I personally know significantly more people who dislike it (more than 15 to 1), but I am in no position to know or claim what the overall demographic of those stats are.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

FastJack

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« Reply #51 on: <06-11-20/1304:25> »

IF they want to be proactive, there are a number of steps they can take.

1) Admit your sins. Admit the system as released is flawed and tell people what you're going to do about it. A lot of Catalyst's customer buy direct... poll them. Find if/how they are using the game.
The system is flawed. 1st edition all the way to 6th edition had flaws, some worse than others. As for polling and communicating with the customers, they have no reason too since every time they have tried, they've been shouted down by people such as yourself that "know better" than they do.
2) Stop selling the 6ed core book now, immediately. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it's about communicating to customers that you've heard them and you care.
And, Shadowrun is no longer published except by Pegasus Press. Hope you know a good translator for all future gaming materials.
3) Move the development budget from new product to fixing what exists. Delay new product launches.
Budget. Now that's funny. How much do you think they have to spend? The average freelancer makes pennies per word because that's what the publisher has a budget for. And, if they delay product launches until the "fans" are happy, you'll never see a new book again. Except from Pegasus Press (got that translator yet?)
4) Communicate a plan to your customers. Set expectations about what you intend to do. (i.e. no wholesale changes to the system or elimination of the AR/DR/Edge mechanic.)
Why should they? As I said before, every time they have spoken about stuff, "fans" give them nothing but grief and tell them what a terrible job they are doing.
5) Leverage the passionate people on this board and others. Many here are already actively trying to point out issues. No one seems to be listening. Setting up virtual, volunteer, working  groups to tackles different parts of the system. It might fail horribly, but you might get something out of it. At least people will feel heard.
You do know that the passionate people on the board are already being used, right? The entire errata team on the boards is volunteers. I'm a volunteer. The only people I don't see volunteering are (mostly) the ones doing all the complaining. Are you passionate? Do you want to volunteer for the Errata team and spend hours of your free time going through the books, making notes and submitting them up the chain? Just contact Jayde Moon.
6) Produce a core rules supplement. Taking the time and effort to re-write the core rule book (v. 6.1, or windows 8.1) can wait. A rules, explanations and clarifications supplement should be the goal. This has to be much more expansive than the the errata.
So, they should stop work on all new development and delay all product launches except for a book that you want and the "fans" are going to expect to get for free? Yep, sound business advice.

penllawen

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« Reply #52 on: <06-11-20/1357:30> »
Despite one of their members repeatedly breaking NDA and deliberately posting information about the contents of SR6 CRB when it wasn't released yet
Not to get in the way of your narrative with facts, but if anyone is reading this and wondering what this is about: a member of the errata team made a post on reddit that quoted something that had been said on a 6e pre-release live-play podcast. They didn't embellish it with any information other than what was in the podcast. They merely repeated something that anyone who listened to the podcast heard.

Technically a breach of the NDA? Apparently. The actions of a bad guy? I don't think so, no. I think you have to be pretty small-minded and petty to think this was a big deal.

Also this happened once, not repeatedly.

Oh, and the nothing happened to the podcaster who let the NDA'd information into the public domain in the first place. Which is, y'know, completely appropriate, as the whole entire point of a preview live-play is to give a taste of the system to people, which the podcaster was doing.

penllawen

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« Reply #53 on: <06-11-20/1359:51> »
Budget. Now that's funny. How much do you think they have to spend?
Catalyst is not poor: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/450703636/battletech-clan-invasion

Sure, that's for a different product line to Shadowrun. Now I'm not suggesting they take money from one pool and spend it on a different pool. Why, that'd be unethical, and anyone who did that would surely be fired immediately.

But nevertheless, Catalyst is not poor.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #54 on: <06-11-20/1405:13> »
Budget. Now that's funny. How much do you think they have to spend?
Catalyst is not poor: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/450703636/battletech-clan-invasion

Sure, that's for a different product line to Shadowrun. Now I'm not suggesting they take money from one pool and spend it on a different pool. Why, that'd be unethical, and anyone who did that would surely be fired immediately.

But nevertheless, Catalyst is not poor.

Bettletech remained popular because they mostly kept it what it was and actually put talent towards it. Shadowrun always was their throwaway title and it shows.

Lormyr

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« Reply #55 on: <06-11-20/1410:21> »
FastJack, some of those replies were unnecessarily hostile, don't you think? Bishop has a massive eight posts, so it's not exactly like he has beaten this horse into the ground like the rest of us.

Technically a breach of the NDA? Apparently. The actions of a bad guy? I don't think so, no. I think you have to be pretty small-minded and petty to think this was a big deal.

Sure, that's for a different product line to Shadowrun. Now I'm not suggesting they take money from one pool and spend it on a different pool. Why, that'd be unethical, and anyone who did that would surely be fired immediately.

Penllawen, you might be my hero. <3
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Banshee

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« Reply #56 on: <06-11-20/1443:27> »
Despite one of their members repeatedly breaking NDA and deliberately posting information about the contents of SR6 CRB when it wasn't released yet
Not to get in the way of your narrative with facts, but if anyone is reading this and wondering what this is about: a member of the errata team made a post on reddit that quoted something that had been said on a 6e pre-release live-play podcast. They didn't embellish it with any information other than what was in the podcast. They merely repeated something that anyone who listened to the podcast heard.

Technically a breach of the NDA? Apparently. The actions of a bad guy? I don't think so, no. I think you have to be pretty small-minded and petty to think this was a big deal.

Also this happened once, not repeatedly.

Oh, and the nothing happened to the podcaster who let the NDA'd information into the public domain in the first place. Which is, y'know, completely appropriate, as the whole entire point of a preview live-play is to give a taste of the system to people, which the podcaster was doing.


As someone who is/was on the otherwise of the curtain during the eluded to incident I will say the truth lies somewhere in the middle of these two descriptions ad often the case in such reports.

Unfortunately due to ethical, legal, and professional responsibilities I cannot go into further detail.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #57 on: <06-11-20/1502:54> »
Despite one of their members repeatedly breaking NDA and deliberately posting information about the contents of SR6 CRB when it wasn't released yet
Not to get in the way of your narrative with facts, but if anyone is reading this and wondering what this is about: a member of the errata team made a post on reddit that quoted something that had been said on a 6e pre-release live-play podcast.
Seems you're talking about something entirely different. The incidents I'm refering to are two separate cases, weeks apart, on this forum. Not reddit-posts. Neither was podcast-related.

Edit: And no, not going into further details. All I wanted to note is that CGL still puts trust in the errata team, despite some very unfortunate events, and that part of their work already got released. But it would be nice if there was more clarity on if some things get denied or simply aren't processed yet.
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adzling

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« Reply #58 on: <06-11-20/1525:43> »
As this NDA stuff is about me, I want to be clear that I take issue with Herr Chandra's characterization of the post/s.

I would place far more stock in what Banshee says, although tbh I'm not clear on what he means by "the truth lies between".

Regardless, suffice to say although I was a founding member of the errata team and worked hard to both get it going in the first place and to keep it going when it stalled / lost leadership/ lacked Catalyst attention multiple times I lost patience with the company as it racked up continued publishing fails and terrible treatment of it's customers. 6e was the final joke they perpetrated on their fanbase in my estimation.

I have no issue being removed from the errata team, 6e isn't for me and so no point in continuing on.

I do think that Jayde Moon (the current errata team leader) and many of it's contributors (Stainless chief amongst them) are quality people doing their best under a limited purview.

It's just that imho 6e is so bad it's not going to get fixed without a wholesale rewrite.

YMMV.

Reaver

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« Reply #59 on: <06-11-20/1619:41> »
Look, I don't have 6e (STILL!!), and I probably won't for a long yet. (real world crap).
Add to that the fact that my campaign and the one I play in are currently in mid swing in 5e, and I don't have a reason to update.

And, Just like when 5e came out, there will be a bitching, and complaining (remember those days oldtimers?)...

And, those of you who rode their Dinosaurs to their stone piles that was the internet back then will remember the 4e bitch fest that went on...


BUT, lets gets somethings straight...

CATALYST is a small company. Do the google-fu (its really not that hard. I'll start you off.... Catalyst is owned by InMediaRes. LLC...)
You are talking about maybe a half dozen full time employees. And maybe a dozen more freelancers and sub-contractors....

Fucking hell, there are RESTAURANTS that have bigger staff and budgets!

In the business world, a million dollars (which they don't even get to keep all of.. Kickstarter gets a cut remember, Uncle Sam wants his...) is nothing. Hell, the company i work for (which is small potatoes in the industrial construction business) just wrote off $375 MILLION in contracts this quarter alone thanks to Covid-19..

Add to the fact that Catalyst is basically just a franchisee, and don't actually own any of the Intellectual Property rights... Just how much positive cash flow do you think they have?



Is their flaws in Shadowrun?
Yes. Always will be too. Some of them will be creator driven, some will be caused by mistaken intent, and others because no one thought of it at the time. (which happens more then people realize, especially when you are trying to give as much agency as an RPG does... )

The question becomes, "Can they be fixed, and can you live with them if they are not".  Now, the errata team does their best (not that I agree with their solutions all the time.. ); And as to the second part, only you can decide that.

And, Do you even KNOW how Catalyst got the rights? Fanpro, A company that had been around for years got the rights to all of FASA's products in 2001 until 2007 when the collapse of Fast Forward Entertainment (their warehousing and fulfillment contractor) basically crippled them (Fanpro closed in 2012).
The ONLY bidders on the 2007 contract was InMediaRes. (kinda puts a nail in that 'lots of companies are interested' theory huh?)

Now, If you want someone to blame... Blame Disney. (use your Google-fu, Connect the dots.. See why I say that... Post here, I'll tell you if you are close)


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Everyone is an Computer Chair CEO when comes to something they like, and think they know the answers...(Except me. I'm always right 8)  ::)), But well... yea...

Communication in this day in age is a companies' worst idea.  They are damned if they do, they are damned if they don't.... (just open your browser to any crap "journalist" site...)

Shadowrun has changed a lot over the years. The original people who made it have died, or moved on to other things: Gone are days of Tom Dowd or Nigel Findley writing entire books for the systems they created. It was passionate fans who picked up the pieces and have been trying to move the franchise forward and keep it alive. Have they done a good job?

You're here and Bitching, so that is something...
 

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.