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State of 6e today

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dezmont

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« Reply #30 on: <06-09-20/0710:26> »
You guys are killing me that that 4e talk though! :p That edition was easily my most disliked game I have ever played. It felt like I was trying to play a bad cookie cutter mmo as a table top game. All gimmick, no substance.

Not everyone can have my amazing taste of liking 4e, Anima, and d20 modern!

Ok, that last one I am actively ashamed to have liked (but hey Urban Arcana was one of the only ways I could get D20 heads to play a SR like game).

Lormyr

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« Reply #31 on: <06-09-20/0714:34> »
Lol. Well played sir, well played!
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Marcus

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« Reply #32 on: <06-09-20/0924:38> »
I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #33 on: <06-09-20/0935:28> »
So with D&D5, it did get several play sessions from me, in a campaign from 1st to 9th level. It was well balanced, but just dull. I am a builds guys, and the rules just weren't dynamic enough to retain my interest.

D&D4 though was one of those things I only had to look at the rule set to know it was not for me. I like 3.0/3.5/pathfinder 1e style d20, where there is tons of build options, and the feats/class features/ect. either open up new permanent options for me or just hard bake right into my numbers. The whole daily/encounter powers thing is utterly boring to me, and made more so because they were all the damn same. Do this much damage, then knock dude prone, or slide dude, or ect.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #34 on: <06-09-20/1026:13> »
SR6's latest release is a 'silver best seller' despite being on a 50% discount for most of its 2 weeks of being out. That sounds neat, but as I overviewed before, if your below platinum you didn't break a thousand sales. Silver, for perspective, means that this book in its 'blockbuster debut period' sold less than 250 copies electronically. We have good reason to suspect the majority of SR's sales are electronic, including history and the fact that we are in the middle of a major viral outbreak and pickup sales from Barnes and Noble or FLGS are likely down, the book isn't available on Amazon yet, and the book isn't even a featured product or for sale in the Catalst store, so right now RPG drivethru is sorta the only location to obtain this book right now.


First printing CRB was Gen Con of last year.  They sold out the ?1,000? (can't recall)  copies they brought to Gen Con.  If the First print run was less than 10k units I'd be shocked.  CGL is sold out so the entire first run is either in customer's hands or in the Distribution/retail channel, which as far as CGL revenue is concerned is sold.

Based on conversations with Freelancers (take that for what its worth) a core rule book would have around 40,000 lifetime sales of the print version.  The splat books are around 20,000 each.

CGL is a tiny company with basically no meaningful capital expenditures.  Salary for 10ish folks.  Licence fees to Topps.  Printing Expenses for new releases.  Storage somewhere for the physical product they haven't shipped to distribution.  Maybe an office, some laptops and publishing software licences (those are expensive).

It doesn't take a lot of unit sales to pay $40k a year to 10 people and keep a couple guys in Jousting lessons. 

My back of the napkin calculations say CGL makes about $10, maybe $15, gross profit per copy.  My guess is that they need to sell an average of 20k rule books a quarter to maintain.  Digital sales and Novels are pure gravy.  As they made over a million bucks on a Battletech Kickstarter not too long ago, they're probably more than fine financially.   

Lormyr

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« Reply #35 on: <06-09-20/1028:33> »
As they made over a million bucks on a Battletech Kickstarter not too long ago, they're probably more than fine financially.

As long as Loren doesn't help himself to it for another "house renovation", you mean.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #36 on: <06-09-20/1052:23> »
As they made over a million bucks on a Battletech Kickstarter not too long ago, they're probably more than fine financially.

As long as Loren doesn't help himself to it for another "house renovation", you mean.

How CGL leadership allocates it's budget isn't something I'm able to guess at   ;  )  But yeah, basically. 

FastJack

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« Reply #37 on: <06-09-20/2019:50> »
I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.
I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.

Reaver

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« Reply #38 on: <06-09-20/2039:02> »
On the DnD4e side of things, i will only say this:

Any time you release a product that opens the door to a competitor, and that competitor goes on to out sell your product, there is a serious issue...

Without DnD4e  Pathfinder would never exist. The fact that Pathfinder went on to out sell DnD4e..... yikes.....
« Last Edit: <06-10-20/0406:53> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Marcus

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« Reply #39 on: <06-09-20/2310:04> »
I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.
I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.

Which is pretty ironic b/c PF2 is 4th with better fluff.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #40 on: <06-10-20/0300:45> »
On the DnD4e side of things, i will only sae this:

Any time you release a product thst opens the door to a competator, and that competator goes on to out sell your product, there is a serious issue...

Without DnD4e  Pathfinder would never exist. The fact that Pathfinder went on to out sell DnD4e..... yikes.....
I liked 4e, though it had weaknesses. But I stopped buying it when they had made balance mistakes and their response wasn't 'hey, use these tweaks to all monsters from MM1, and change these feats like this', no, instead they brought out D&D 4.25, aka 'Essentials'. And suddenly you had 2 versions of the same edition, and you had to check every book with which of the two it was compatible! But I did like 4e a lot, it made charbuilding relatively easy for me. I even had a 'future-vision' campaign where 3x I gave my players L10 versions of their characters for half a session, and that was quite doable for me to manage.

Pathfinder my main memory is 'okay so I have 10 likely combinations of my buffs written down for what they give me as attack and damage bonuses with 2-handed vs 1-handed strike' as combat cleric. When people claim Shadowrun is crunchy, I recall that table and laugh.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Lormyr

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« Reply #41 on: <06-10-20/0552:49> »
Pathfinder my main memory is 'okay so I have 10 likely combinations of my buffs written down for what they give me as attack and damage bonuses with 2-handed vs 1-handed strike' as combat cleric. When people claim Shadowrun is crunchy, I recall that table and laugh.

It's a different kind of crunch. Shadowrun is full of miscellaneous, situational crunch. Pathfinder is full of spell buff crunch. I personally enjoy both, but it's a simple matter of personal preference. Liking one but not the other or finding one easy to work with but not the other is fairly common in my gaming experience.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

FastJack

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« Reply #42 on: <06-10-20/1312:50> »
I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.
I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.

Which is pretty ironic b/c PF2 is 4th with better fluff.

Actually, it's more than just better fluff. There's a number of mechanics that have exponentially increased the usability of 4E.

Marcus

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« Reply #43 on: <06-10-20/1724:50> »
I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.
I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.

Which is pretty ironic b/c PF2 is 4th with better fluff.

Actually, it's more than just better fluff. There's a number of mechanics that have exponentially increased the usability of 4E.

LOL aaaah Good?
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Bishop75

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« Reply #44 on: <06-11-20/0029:41> »
I've been a fan of SR since at least 2nd ed and have owned dozens of source books over the years. Ignoring the whole AR/DR mechanic (which I actually think is OK, could be better, but OK), I'd have to say I'm overall pretty disappointed with 6th ed. I started playing a couple months ago with a group of also very experienced SR players, and here's my comments.

- Too many rules are incomplete or missing. Had a PC try to cast a spell at a vehicle, pretty basic, but there is no rule at all in the book, that I could find. That's just one example, there are many, many more.

- Anybody who says the vehicle rules are fine, tell me what happens when you apply the brakes on your car in SR6? If you follow RAW, you decelerate at the accel rate. So it takes a Ford Americar travelling a highway speed something like 36 seconds to come to a stop. Ya.. OK... that works great.

- Cutting Black source book was interesting... but where are the rules on bug spirits? Pretty much an entire source book dedicated to insect spirits and we get 1 or 2 pages that only describe a true form spirit, and it's doesn't even make sense (i.e. no materialization power). Started with my PC's before the events in Detroit and wanted to use bug spirits... had to go back to my 4th ed Magic book and make up my own rules for 6ed.

- Firing Squad: Why all the spoilers for Cutting Black events in the book? It's annoying. I wanted to give it my PCs to look at the equipment, but had to create a redacted version without all the spoilers. Why? The book would have been fine without the spoilers?

I'm going to agree with the crowd above... if you are not a SR expert (I've been on hiatus for about 10 years) and you're not willing to invest a huge amount of time in creating you own house rules to fill in the blanks, the game is just not playable (sorry dev team, it actually pains me to say that). If it weren't for my long standing love for the SR world and the fact that I have time on my hands right now (thanks COVID), I'd have given up and tried something else. Or maybe we'd have gone back to 4th ed.