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State of 6e today

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Moonrunner

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« on: <06-02-20/0107:20> »
Can anyone please help me understand what the current status is of the 6e game? I bought all the initial products, including the core rulebook, starter set, Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia, No Future, etc.  We set up a local face-to-face campaign in short order and I eventually completely burned out on the game when I saw how utterly confusing the rules were in the core rulebook, even for character creation! The game was even completely missing some very important rules.

We decided to put things on ice and revisit it in the future to see if they ever filled in all the missing stuff and clarifications that they kept promising.

Where are we now and if things have been made better, where can I find the updates, please?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <06-02-20/0326:11> »
We have a January errataed PDF and an August+February Errata file, they're not perfect but they fix a lot of the mistakes. https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=31170.msg536323#msg536323

For chargen, I did write something up that goes into easily-missed/misread rules: https://shadowland.blog/2020/05/28/sr6-chargen-for-newbies/

Quality-wise: In Firing Squad so far I made it through the weapons section, there's some mistakes but pretty much minor ones.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <06-02-20/0950:41> »
The errata files can be found here.  If you bought a digital copy from CGL or Drivethrurpg, you'll be able to download an updated copy of the CRB that incorporates the errata.  These waves of errata address many things, among them Power Points in chargen, and giving Unarmed combat a base DV.  I'm not sure which specific issues you were referring to, but odds are decent at least some of them were addressed.  But some design features/flaws (depending on one's point of view) like armor not adding to soak and the AR vs DR mechanic, remain.

The first major rules expansion book, Firing Squad, recently was released. Gear porn. Edge actions porn. If you dislike the armor mechanic in 6e, you may really like some of the armor modifications in this book: you can purchase add-ons for your armor that makes it reduce incoming damage.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #3 on: <06-02-20/1302:23> »
The first major rules expansion book, Firing Squad, recently was released. Gear porn. Edge actions porn. If you dislike the armor mechanic in 6e, you may really like some of the armor modifications in this book: you can purchase add-ons for your armor that makes it reduce incoming damage.


As of now, Firing Line absolutely won´t help if you have a general problem with the armor mechanic (or rather: The whole "AR/DR has too less of an impact" issue). It´s actually the opposite: A lot of the new stuff in Firing Line is about adding or substracting to AR or DR, but there´s nothing new that gives these an additional purpose. So, if you (like many, many, many others...) feel that these numbers don´t have enough impact in the first place and play 6th strictly RAW, then a lot of the stuff in Firing Line is just meaningless gunk.

However: Yes, the Armor Modifications SSDR mentions are a wortwhile addition either way, especially if your problem is that your character dies to quickly. They are a bit gimmicky and mostly not chargen-legal, but they can be really impactfull and fun to use.
« Last Edit: <06-02-20/1515:47> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Marcus

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« Reply #4 on: <06-03-20/0046:06> »
Over all nothing has really changed from where we were at release. The core remains unplayable without a significant number of house rules.

Firing Squad made some limited efforts to address community concerns, but the core problems with the system remain.

So it's simply a question of how much effort you want to put into making 6e playable at your table.
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Annoch

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« Reply #5 on: <06-06-20/1923:13> »
Over all nothing has really changed from where we were at release. The core remains unplayable without a significant number of house rules.

Firing Squad made some limited efforts to address community concerns, but the core problems with the system remain.

So it's simply a question of how much effort you want to put into making 6e playable at your table.

What he said, sadly.

I was cautiously hopeful for the Second Errata, but it turns out that was a waste of time.  None of the corrections have any meaningful impact on the actual game issues.  I don't mean subjective things like 'I dont like edge' or 'I don't think AR/DR is good'; I mean they don't fix 'the Matrix doesn't work', 'Rigging doesn't work', 'Character generation still requires significant third party explanation (see above), and there are a number of rules and abilities that are either so poorly written/vague that they are unusable.

I was also cautiously optimistic for Firing Line, and at least there is some better news there.  I do not understand the lack of pictures of the weapons and equipment...since that is sort of the point of the gun porn aspect.  Even the line drawings of the weapons in earlier editions would be preferable to...well...nothing.  It also does nothing to help if you don't like the AR/DR/Edge thing; in fact it really doubles down on them.  On the other hand, if you are digging 6E and have gotten your house rules down and have players who want to go through all of that to play, then Firing Line is an absolute must have.

Oh well...

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <06-06-20/1942:14> »
Most weapons haven't had pictures for as long as I played Shadowrun.

I have read very few complaints about the Matrix and Rigging, and there's only a handful of matters that have confused people enough to require writer clarification, so errors aside, I do not understand the claims that Matrix and Rigging don't work. Especially when you compare Rigging to SR5 CRB, I actually consider the claim unbelievable. Just like the claim that the errata didn't have any significant impact.

 I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.
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dezmont

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« Reply #7 on: <06-06-20/2115:01> »
Most weapons haven't had pictures for as long as I played Shadowrun.

And don't we all wish we could go back to the days before SR's... creative... firearms art?



I have read very few complaints about the Matrix and Rigging, and there's only a handful of matters that have confused people enough to require writer clarification, so errors aside, I do not understand the claims that Matrix and Rigging don't work. Especially when you compare Rigging to SR5 CRB, I actually consider the claim unbelievable. Just like the claim that the errata didn't have any significant impact.

 I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.

I happen to know a lot of people who wrote a lot about the 6e matrix (it is, essentially, marks by another name, and while its beeeeeteeeer it doesn't exactly fix all the core problems with the subsystem), and these complaints are pretty visible with some cursory googling. Of course, I don't think you would go around googling problems in a system you like, so its understandable that they aren't visible to you!

Rigging in 5e was trash, but I could believe complaints about it. The complaints about it certainly are way less visible.

The errata did nothing to impact many of the core complaints about the edition many people had. Significant is subjective, and I think it is fair to say for many people errata failed to have a major impact in their problems with the system.

Finally, I would recommend avoiding essentializing your subjective experiences and perception of problems to the point that people who do not match them come across as liars. It both isn't persuasive, and, take it from someone who got trapped doing it for a while, really messes with your own head and makes you unhappy. People generally have reasons to believe what they believe and say what they say that make sense to them, and its better to address those aspects than to just dismiss things wholesale as deception or manipulation.
« Last Edit: <06-06-20/2128:36> by dezmont »

Annoch

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« Reply #8 on: <06-07-20/1113:00> »
Most weapons haven't had pictures for as long as I played Shadowrun.

I have read very few complaints about the Matrix and Rigging, and there's only a handful of matters that have confused people enough to require writer clarification, so errors aside, I do not understand the claims that Matrix and Rigging don't work. Especially when you compare Rigging to SR5 CRB, I actually consider the claim unbelievable. Just like the claim that the errata didn't have any significant impact.

 I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.



First, it would seem that you have been playing the latest few Shadowrun Editions regularly and have a good understanding of them.  That is excellent, and I am jealous of you.  Sadly if you are returning from older editions, or are heaven forbid a completely new player, the CRB, even after errata is at best a tough read.  If the intention of the book was to cater to only experienced players, then I take full responsibility for the misunderstanding.  If this is meant to make the game more widely available to a new audience, it is a complete failure.  I introduced it to my gaming group which has a number of RPG/tabletop/board gaming veterans, but none who had ever done anything with SR other than me, and they were/are baffled.  I did my best to explain it and ask questions on the forums, but I admit that I too am often baffled by the rules.  Luckily for me (and me alone), the quarantines put our planned play sessions on hold.  I had hoped that I would see further errata and maybe firing line before things got back to normal and that they would smooth things out, but....they came out and things are still not smooth.

Even after two errata, the matrix portion of the rulebook still appears to be a rushed copy paste delete job from 5E that no one ever bothered to finish.  If you can understand how that all works from the rulebook, then you are a better man that I; and I work with the United States Tax Code for a living.  I would say that the what that section needs is 10-20 pages of examples, but the examples that are in the book are either riddled with errors themselves or do not actually focus on the complicated or novel parts of the rules.   It is my firm belief that you either need to be a Shadowrun savant, willing to make huge sections of the rules up/house rule many situations, or have read a significant number of forum posts and third party material to have any hope of really understanding how all of this works together.

The rigging section (as is apparently tradition at this point?) is a horribly undercooked five pages of rules, that is mostly based on the matrix rules (not great) that adds a variety of other vague premises on top of it.  Maybe everyone just knows that you have to wait for the new editions Rigger book before you can properly rigger....

I question your statement that you cannot find anyone having issues with matrix/rigging.  I too have the internet, and have had no issues finding such things on this very forum, Reddit, and other places...It has not been that difficult. 

Also, I see a lot of people, including yourself, referring to the 5E (or whatever edition) rulebook to essentially say....'well rigging was worse there, so you should be happy with whatever they shoveled into 6E'.  I don't understand this.  I personally did not play 5E, did I need to to enjoy 6E?  Again, if this rulebook is just for hardcore veterans, I will see myself out...

Oh, and I don't know when you started playing SR, but in 1st - 3rd edition most of the gear in the source books had some sort of art, even the cyberware and bioware.  Check it out if you haven't; it's not always the best art but it's pretty cool that it is there.

I can understand defending a product you enjoy...but not simply declaring things false because you don't have a problem with them.

Marcus

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« Reply #9 on: <06-07-20/1506:35> »
I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.

Saying people's opinions are falsehoods isn't very friendly Chandra.


« Last Edit: <06-07-20/1511:37> by Marcus »
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Lormyr

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« Reply #10 on: <06-07-20/1619:15> »
These replies make me happy. That is all.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #11 on: <06-07-20/1722:52> »
Most weapons haven't had pictures for as long as I played Shadowrun.

I have read very few complaints about the Matrix and Rigging, and there's only a handful of matters that have confused people enough to require writer clarification, so errors aside, I do not understand the claims that Matrix and Rigging don't work. Especially when you compare Rigging to SR5 CRB, I actually consider the claim unbelievable. Just like the claim that the errata didn't have any significant impact.

 I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.



First, it would seem that you have been playing the latest few Shadowrun Editions regularly and have a good understanding of them.  That is excellent, and I am jealous of you.  Sadly if you are returning from older editions, or are heaven forbid a completely new player, the CRB, even after errata is at best a tough read.  If the intention of the book was to cater to only experienced players, then I take full responsibility for the misunderstanding.  If this is meant to make the game more widely available to a new audience, it is a complete failure.  I introduced it to my gaming group which has a number of RPG/tabletop/board gaming veterans, but none who had ever done anything with SR other than me, and they were/are baffled.  I did my best to explain it and ask questions on the forums, but I admit that I too am often baffled by the rules.  Luckily for me (and me alone), the quarantines put our planned play sessions on hold.  I had hoped that I would see further errata and maybe firing line before things got back to normal and that they would smooth things out, but....they came out and things are still not smooth.

Even after two errata, the matrix portion of the rulebook still appears to be a rushed copy paste delete job from 5E that no one ever bothered to finish.  If you can understand how that all works from the rulebook, then you are a better man that I; and I work with the United States Tax Code for a living.  I would say that the what that section needs is 10-20 pages of examples, but the examples that are in the book are either riddled with errors themselves or do not actually focus on the complicated or novel parts of the rules.   It is my firm belief that you either need to be a Shadowrun savant, willing to make huge sections of the rules up/house rule many situations, or have read a significant number of forum posts and third party material to have any hope of really understanding how all of this works together.

The rigging section (as is apparently tradition at this point?) is a horribly undercooked five pages of rules, that is mostly based on the matrix rules (not great) that adds a variety of other vague premises on top of it.  Maybe everyone just knows that you have to wait for the new editions Rigger book before you can properly rigger....

I question your statement that you cannot find anyone having issues with matrix/rigging.  I too have the internet, and have had no issues finding such things on this very forum, Reddit, and other places...It has not been that difficult. 

Also, I see a lot of people, including yourself, referring to the 5E (or whatever edition) rulebook to essentially say....'well rigging was worse there, so you should be happy with whatever they shoveled into 6E'.  I don't understand this.  I personally did not play 5E, did I need to to enjoy 6E?  Again, if this rulebook is just for hardcore veterans, I will see myself out...

Oh, and I don't know when you started playing SR, but in 1st - 3rd edition most of the gear in the source books had some sort of art, even the cyberware and bioware.  Check it out if you haven't; it's not always the best art but it's pretty cool that it is there.

I can understand defending a product you enjoy...but not simply declaring things false because you don't have a problem with them.

As an aside to this, I think 5e did rigging better. It wasn't good, but the math worked far better. The math in 6e for rigging and dear god 2/3rd+ of the magic section is a pure train wreck.

dezmont

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« Reply #12 on: <06-08-20/0642:03> »
As an aside to this, I think 5e did rigging better. It wasn't good, but the math worked far better. The math in 6e for rigging and dear god 2/3rd+ of the magic section is a pure train wreck.

The way I see it, SR5 had some content problems (Ex: Unbalanced options, too many ways to make sustaining go overboard), but had solid 'bones.' This is why a lot of people were so grossed out by the radical changes: 5e needed some love and an intense look at legacy balance mechanics, and while of course its valid for a new edition to chart a new course, 6e sorta... rejected the idea a lot of core concepts of SR were ever good. Some of that is true, but a lot of it wasn't (I don't think if you surveyed 100 SR players any would say they want street sams to... basically not be an archetype anymore for example).

4e had less solid bones but elements that spoke to people (ex: Ambush focused combat, mechanics that encouraged you to go wild).

6e has a problem where its bones just aren't great for the most part, which is why its so hard to imagine fixes for.

You could fix 4e rigging by *nerfing* it, it was easily the strongest archetype in the entire game due to how for an amazingly low investment riggers opted out of the 'don't get shot at any cost, if you even rolled a defense test you screwed up but if you plan a fight well you win it in like 2 passes' style of play 4e encouraged, both because drones were cheap enough to be disposable and tough enough with proper mods to basically not be at risk of destruction anyway, while the only other real opt out was sams who were EXPENSIVE. You could fix 5e rigging by changing some minor things around so more power came from the PC than the drone and invent some BS reason why drones weren't lost when destroyed mid run and increased their price or something, because the main issue with riggers in 5e are that lots of drones at once are kinda annoying and you risk so much cash to not even be as good as a street sam in ways that matter (Your offensive dicepools are better but sams don't generate a lot of their value from attack dice compared to say... an off combat face but you sacrifice everything else that actually has lots of value for a sam like soak).

6e? I mean rigging is ok there, but its hard to see an out where it will be a great mechanic.

penllawen

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« Reply #13 on: <06-08-20/0702:52> »
6e has a problem where its bones just aren't great for the most part, which is why its so hard to imagine fixes for.
Don't worry, dezmont; I was told repeatedly a year ago that we were all just change-averse grognards who'd soon be playing 6e and swearing up and down we'd loved it all along. We can't be far away from that now, surely?

FastJack

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« Reply #14 on: <06-08-20/0801:17> »
6e has a problem where its bones just aren't great for the most part, which is why its so hard to imagine fixes for.
Don't worry, dezmont; I was told repeatedly a year ago that we were all just change-averse grognards who'd soon be playing 6e and swearing up and down we'd loved it all along. We can't be far away from that now, surely?
Yes, that was exactly what was said. CONFORM!