NEWS

5e dnd vs 6e SR. Seeking simplicity and why edge failed,

  • 124 Replies
  • 4878 Views

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 719
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #120 on: <07-10-20/1121:35> »
There is no parallel Dez, as long as 6e edge has negation you can't set a base value to edge. B/C You just can't predict what 1 edge point will translate too; the value of 1 edge is just too variable (1/3 of another success given a failure, 2/3 of -1 for an opponent, increased the cost of their edge use). Further with AR/DR there are 2-3 possible points of failure before even reaching the 4 swing mechanic.
I've said this before, I know, but I think the key mistake wasn't adding an advantage/disadvantage style mechanic to 6e. It was merging it with the 5e the-chips-are-down version of Edge, and then facing the insurmountable numerical difficulty of putting those two very different power levels on an even footing. That in turn necessities squashing AR/DR's wide input range down to a small output range, which in turn robs it of impact because it means you're frequently going to be in situations where you didn't hit a breakpoint so it feels like your gear did nothing.

Were I still trying to houserule 6e into a state I wanted to play, I'd try and unpick them: first put oldEdge back to 5e's spec. A small pool, used on demand, with a short menu of associated actions that are comparatively powerful. Maybe restrict this to become PC-only. Then nuEdge remains calculated from AR/DR. Get rid of the "only does something on +/- 4" option; instead, take AR minus DR directly. This feeds solely into the roll it was calculated from, maybe as simply as being +/- dice on that roll.

With DR factored in this way, I'd also try and pursue one my personal Shadowrun houserule white whales, which is getting combat down to two rolls instead of three. I haven't got this worked out but I feel like there's probably a mechanic there. If DR affects the attacker's role to an extent that the table feels like body/armour has been taken into account, you can drop the soak roll and just roll to defence. Or go the other way: calculate DR from Reaction/Intuition, use AR/DR to replace the defence roll [1], and only roll to soak. The latter approach breaks all the ways gun mods work though, so is probably less preferable.

[1] Which has never made a great deal of sense to me anyway. It's not like anyone in SR is moving fast enough to dodge bullets. 1e-3e didn't really have defence roll, just the possibility of a clean miss if the defender's combat pool dice alone got more hits than the attacker. Which is an overly convoluted mechanic, but there's an elegance to the idea, I think, especially as combat pool was a finite resource across the whole turn that the player had to manage.

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 918
« Reply #121 on: <07-11-20/0908:17> »
There is no parallel Dez, as long as 6e edge has negation you can't set a base value to edge. B/C You just can't predict what 1 edge point will translate too; the value of 1 edge is just too variable (1/3 of another success given a failure, 2/3 of -1 for an opponent, increased the cost of their edge use). Further with AR/DR there are 2-3 possible points of failure before even reaching the 4 swing mechanic.
I've said this before, I know, but I think the key mistake wasn't adding an advantage/disadvantage style mechanic to 6e. It was merging it with the 5e the-chips-are-down version of Edge, and then facing the insurmountable numerical difficulty of putting those two very different power levels on an even footing. That in turn necessities squashing AR/DR's wide input range down to a small output range, which in turn robs it of impact because it means you're frequently going to be in situations where you didn't hit a breakpoint so it feels like your gear did nothing.

Were I still trying to houserule 6e into a state I wanted to play, I'd try and unpick them: first put oldEdge back to 5e's spec. A small pool, used on demand, with a short menu of associated actions that are comparatively powerful. Maybe restrict this to become PC-only. Then nuEdge remains calculated from AR/DR. Get rid of the "only does something on +/- 4" option; instead, take AR minus DR directly. This feeds solely into the roll it was calculated from, maybe as simply as being +/- dice on that roll.

With DR factored in this way, I'd also try and pursue one my personal Shadowrun houserule white whales, which is getting combat down to two rolls instead of three. I haven't got this worked out but I feel like there's probably a mechanic there. If DR affects the attacker's role to an extent that the table feels like body/armour has been taken into account, you can drop the soak roll and just roll to defence. Or go the other way: calculate DR from Reaction/Intuition, use AR/DR to replace the defence roll [1], and only roll to soak. The latter approach breaks all the ways gun mods work though, so is probably less preferable.

[1] Which has never made a great deal of sense to me anyway. It's not like anyone in SR is moving fast enough to dodge bullets. 1e-3e didn't really have defence roll, just the possibility of a clean miss if the defender's combat pool dice alone got more hits than the attacker. Which is an overly convoluted mechanic, but there's an elegance to the idea, I think, especially as combat pool was a finite resource across the whole turn that the player had to manage.

Again it's interesting that you say that, because the first version of the Advantage system was very much like that when I pitched it. Wasn't until after the first round of playtest that it got modified and merged with Edge.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 719
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #122 on: <07-12-20/0918:38> »
Again it's interesting that you say that, because the first version of the Advantage system was very much like that when I pitched it. Wasn't until after the first round of playtest that it got modified and merged with Edge.
Ah, interesting! I thought I recalled one of the pre-release podcasts mentioning that the merger happened during development, maybe even quite late, but I wasnt totally sure I was remembering correctly.

I suspect you might not be able to say, but in case you can - what sort of ideas did you have for how to apply advantage/disadvantage in SR? Ive pondered a few, from a +/- dice pool (simple, maybe a little dull) to changing the target number to 4 or 6 (perhaps controversial, although as someone who played a lot of 2e it has a retro appeal to me.) From a pure game design perspective Id be fascinated to hear more.

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 918
« Reply #123 on: <07-12-20/1044:40> »
Again it's interesting that you say that, because the first version of the Advantage system was very much like that when I pitched it. Wasn't until after the first round of playtest that it got modified and merged with Edge.
Ah, interesting! I thought I recalled one of the pre-release podcasts mentioning that the merger happened during development, maybe even quite late, but I wasnt totally sure I was remembering correctly.

I suspect you might not be able to say, but in case you can - what sort of ideas did you have for how to apply advantage/disadvantage in SR? Ive pondered a few, from a +/- dice pool (simple, maybe a little dull) to changing the target number to 4 or 6 (perhaps controversial, although as someone who played a lot of 2e it has a retro appeal to me.) From a pure game design perspective Id be fascinated to hear more.

Honestly that was far enough back that I would have to dig up some old documents to say for sure, but the general concept was that if had the advantage (based on a variable scale not a set threshold ... i think it was every 2 or 3 point of advantage was a chip) it opened up options of extra manuevers (like spend 4 chips to use anticipation), giving bonuses to allies (spend 2 chips ro give an ally +1), and added effects (spend 5 chips to alter the scene, like adding a makeshift zip line at the window fire escape to enable a hasty extraction)

The overall thought was that if you were in a situation where you had that kind of advantage then just gaining bonus dice to your own stuff was inconsequential but would make sense if you could improve the tactical advantage of your team or end the fight even quicker through special effects and maneuvers.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2790
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #124 on: <07-12-20/1912:03> »
Id agree an advantage/disadvantage system equivalent would have been better.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking