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Technomancers and forced matrix ejection

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Scythe Massakur

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« on: <05-28-20/2320:17> »
So, I have just come to another problem I am unprepared for and I can't find any info on it. If a technomancer needs to be forcibly removed from the matrix to save them from dying, how would one do that? Since they're not physically jacked in.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <05-28-20/2332:16> »
I'm not sure I understand the question, as pulling someone out of the matrix is not required to do first aid/medkit.

Are you asking about a context like "OMG, he's getting his ass kicked by the IC, I'm pulling the plug on him"?  Because if so... yeah you can't do that with a Living Persona.  Aside from knocking him unconscious yourself.  But dumpshock might kill him...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #2 on: <05-29-20/1218:26> »
So, I have just come to another problem I am unprepared for and I can't find any info on it. If a technomancer needs to be forcibly removed from the matrix to save them from dying, how would one do that? Since they're not physically jacked in.

Deckers aren't physically jacked in either.  Haven't been since 3rd edition.  It's all Wireless baby.  If they're Link Locked it's the Jack Out action or bust. 

Banshee

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« Reply #3 on: <05-29-20/1238:04> »
So, I have just come to another problem I am unprepared for and I can't find any info on it. If a technomancer needs to be forcibly removed from the matrix to save them from dying, how would one do that? Since they're not physically jacked in.

Deckers aren't physically jacked in either.  Haven't been since 3rd edition.  It's all Wireless baby.  If they're Link Locked it's the Jack Out action or bust.

Decker can still have a buddy that can shutdown his deck and sever the connection as long as its not an implant. Still causes dumpshock but it's an option at least, if they know it.
Technomancers... not so much it the price you pay for not having gear.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #4 on: <05-29-20/1302:54> »
Link Lock specifically prevents Rebooting, at least it did in 5th.  Did that change?

Banshee

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« Reply #5 on: <05-29-20/1327:55> »
No change... but being able to physically shutdown a deck is different than rebooting as a matrix action.

Reboot is like using the windows command to restart your computer while the other is like pulling the plug. I assume people don't need to be told that a piece of electronics gear has a power switch.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <05-29-20/1346:23> »
Being allowed to just physically turn off a device does kind of take the threat out of link locking, though.  I assumed that the link lock overrides the power-off function.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #7 on: <05-29-20/1354:06> »
Not really in my opinion, still causes dumpshock and there are still a lot of "IFS" in play.

Can it be done? Yes ... if there is some way that your buddy know when to do it? Is it some kind of biometric trigger alarm? What sets it off if so? Can you send a message? Sometimes, but usually not. Is there some other contingency you set up? What it is? What if your buddy miss reads the cue? Or doesn't see it because they are distracted?

It's no different than pulling the cable from the datajack was in previous editions.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

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« Reply #8 on: <05-29-20/1408:01> »
Being allowed to just physically turn off a device does kind of take the threat out of link locking, though.  I assumed that the link lock overrides the power-off function.

Software can't disable a physical switch.

However, if the decker is hacking in VR, then he physically can't power down his deck as VR overrides his physical body movements.

Hence why a buddy would have to do it for him.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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Hobbes

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« Reply #9 on: <05-29-20/1418:48> »
Turning a device off is essentially the Reboot action, unless you're using a sledge hammer to hit the power switch.  And FWIW remapping the function of a Power button on a device is absolutely something Malware and the like do all the time IRL.  If Stuxnet can do it, so can Black IC I should think.  Modern devices do not have an electro-mechanical switch like a light switch.  You are not mechanically completing or breaking an electrical circuit between the power supply and the CPU.

I've always presumed the Jack Out test was because its a pressure situation where seconds matter.  You need to first recognize that you're Link Locked.  Two, know what to do about it.  Three, actually do that thing in a couple of seconds before the terrors from the digital realms fry your brain and call down a drone strike on your meat body.

If effectively no test is required to break Link Lock, what's the point?  Link Lock forces a Persona to stay on the Matrix so GOD can rain down righteous retribution on the Hacker via digital demons.  Jack Out is the frantic, last second scrambling to prevent that.

You can fluff the Jack Out action however you'd like.  Yank the batteries, manually turn off the Wireless, deliberately crash your own OS, whatever.  (I have no idea what the Technomancer fluff would be...) I'd even let other PCs assist with the appropriate rolls.  But it's still a roll, because the PC can fail, and there are serious consequences for failure.

Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: <05-29-20/1443:33> »
Turning a device off is essentially the Reboot action, unless you're using a sledge hammer to hit the power switch.  And FWIW remapping the function of a Power button on a device is absolutely something Malware and the like do all the time IRL.  If Stuxnet can do it, so can Black IC I should think.  Modern devices do not have an electro-mechanical switch like a light switch.  You are not mechanically completing or breaking an electrical circuit between the power supply and the CPU.

Stuxnet doesn't do what you think it does... it in no way stops someone from walking up and flipping the Off switch.

Now, don't confuse a filament delay switch (like the one on your phone to stop you from turning it off accidentally) for software.... it's still a mechanical switch.


(This is my real life job we are talking about here. I install this stuff all day long, and have dealt with Stuxnet through Siemiens, Microsoft)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Hobbes

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« Reply #11 on: <05-29-20/1500:32> »
Stuxnet was a poor example as it targets industrial machines that still have electro mechanical toggle switches, fair enough.

But re-mapping a power button is something even I can do given a few minutes.  I have complete faith in Sci-Fi hunter killer pseudo AIs being able to do it as well.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <05-29-20/1520:35> »
exactly.  I have strong doubts that devices in the sixth world use analog off switches. 
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Reaver

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« Reply #13 on: <05-29-20/1526:18> »
Look....

I typed up a huge article, had links... but the comp crapped it up before I could post and I am not going through the effort AGAIN.


IN SHORT:

Do not confuse the "power down" electronic command in windows or your phone, for the actual PHYSICAL BUTTON located on EVERY FRICKKEN DEVICE know to man.

They are 2 entirely seperate things. always have been, always will be..

There is nothing that bunch of floating bits of data are going to do to a PHYSICAL CIRCUIT.....  and it is beyond the pale you can't grasp that...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: <05-29-20/1529:15> »
That's just it.  I don't see them HAVING physical power buttons. By 2080 everyone's doing everything via AR.  Physically pulling your commlink out to press a physical button is so Fifth World.  I imagine they're not seen any more than rotary dials are on smartphones now.  For the same reasons.  Probably even more, even better reasons for Big Brother/Big Data not wanting consumers to have a physical switch to cut the power to their commlinks.

And when it comes to link lock overriding an order to power off... we already have this concept in the Matrix hacking rules.  "hack" the gun so that when the trigger is pulled, it ejects the clip instead of firing.  Not much of a stretch to imagine that link lock inherently "hacks" your power-down command to go to file 13 rather than actually powering down.

And of course, in the case of implanted devices... there's certainly no reason they'd have a physical button of any kind.
« Last Edit: <05-29-20/1550:26> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.