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Firing Squad released

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #30 on: <06-01-20/1037:36> »
Edit: But in the meantime: SSDR, what about them other explosives home slice!? :)

Heh.  I'd love to see the CRB grenades/rockets rewritten with lower DVs, but alas I'm not the King of Shadowrun.  And that's probably for the best ;D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Finstersang

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« Reply #31 on: <06-01-20/1117:45> »
Echo to Finstersang that a great opportunity to expand or later the AR/DR mechanic was missed, but at least the book was overall a step in the right direction of making the system more palatable. Several of the commonly voiced community criticisms were addressed, so maybe if we just get louder on the AR/DR stuff that might get some lime light too. :p

Thatīs my (faint...) hope here as well. Once you assume that AR/DR is "fixed" in a reasonable way, Firing Line is a huge step in the right direction. And since I (like many of the 6th Edition "remainers") already have Houserules for that stuff in place, it is a really nice addition for me. However, without that fix, the value of that book rapidly decreases.

Apart from that problem, I have hardly any major complaints besides one: The stuff in the "Edge Actions" section (Which is also deeply intertwined with the MA section) is extremely hit-or-miss. Half of the new Actions are neat actually and worthwhile, but the other half is so obviously bad that you just might have left the space blank. The different the "Called Shot" variations are an especially bad example, at least in the german version. Not only because of the hefty Edge Costs (Cool, I have to "farm" Edge before I can try to hit an opponen in the eyes?  ???) - many of these are just so bad in terms of gameplay effects and success chances that they wouldnīt even be worthwhile without negative modifiers or Edge Costs.
« Last Edit: <06-01-20/1150:05> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Marcus

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« Reply #32 on: <06-01-20/1228:46> »
Sure. Let me just envision SR6 as it's written already... Done. Hey, Attack Rating has a meaning. Such a marvelous imaginary situation.
And hey, if you want to tweak it: https://shadowland.blog/2020/05/08/houserules-edge-ar-dr/

By all means keep telling yourself that Chandra, cause man that reflex is just working so well for you so far hasn't it?

Anyway I agree addressing the AR/DR problem along with the other steps taken in Firing Squad would be a reasonable start towards addressing a good chunk of the core issues or 6e. That fact that martial arts in 6e will be the equivalent of feat tax on melee builds and you can end some very strange out comes as result is real but minor enough I'm not going to get too upset about it.  I'm not sold that the boat can be turned around at this point, once a system is labeled by the community getting folks to change their minds is an uphill battle.  There still a lot of other issues to be addressed, but it is nice to see something done address the concerns, even if it's very minimal.

Edit: btw that blog isn't at all correct, when we say AR/DR does nothing it's not just the 4 point thing it's also scope, flaws, edge limits, the long list of things the negate the any value in edge. Because any and all of those conditions totally invalidate AR/DR, and in fact it's so much easier to invalidate that system then engage with that system. Until that's not true AR/DR have no value. Also armor not soaking also was an issue. So really if you're going to be honest I'd suggest making that more clear.
« Last Edit: <06-01-20/1248:56> by Marcus »
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Lormyr

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« Reply #33 on: <06-01-20/1234:33> »
Heh.  I'd love to see the CRB grenades/rockets rewritten with lower DVs, but alas I'm not the King of Shadowrun.  And that's probably for the best ;D

I dig it. But you guys have at least passed it on to the powers that be, right?
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Lormyr

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« Reply #34 on: <06-01-20/1251:44> »
Apart from that problem, I have hardly any major complaints besides one: The stuff in the "Edge Actions" section (Which is also deeply intertwined with the MA section) is extremely hit-or-miss. Half of the new Actions are neat actually and worthwhile, but the other half is so obviously bad that you just might have left the space blank.

I do agree, but I suppose I tend to just overlook that because "dead weight options" are so common in every game I have ever played that I have learned to quickly and automatically just sift through them.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Banshee

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« Reply #35 on: <06-01-20/1347:43> »
Heh.  I'd love to see the CRB grenades/rockets rewritten with lower DVs, but alas I'm not the King of Shadowrun.  And that's probably for the best ;D

I dig it. But you guys have at least passed it on to the powers that be, right?

We sure did
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Lormyr

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« Reply #36 on: <06-01-20/1351:03> »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #37 on: <06-01-20/1502:19> »
Apart from that problem, I have hardly any major complaints besides one: The stuff in the "Edge Actions" section (Which is also deeply intertwined with the MA section) is extremely hit-or-miss. Half of the new Actions are neat actually and worthwhile, but the other half is so obviously bad that you just might have left the space blank.

I do agree, but I suppose I tend to just overlook that because "dead weight options" are so common in every game I have ever played that I have learned to quickly and automatically just sift through them.

The only way to make sure every option is the best option is to just have one option.   ; )

Finstersang

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« Reply #38 on: <06-01-20/1550:45> »
Yeah, but in this case, the deadweight options are not stuff like different "strictly worse than..." pieces of gear, spells or perks. A lot of the fragged-up "Called Shots" are stuff that players will def. want to do without any real alternatives, but will almost never be able to pull off RAW because of the Edge taxation (yep, always a good to idea to double down on things that are widely criticized  ::)) and the super-low success rate. At this point, a supplement can actually make things worse, by making actions (almost) impossible that otherwise would have just been improvised by the GM.

"Oh shit, that dude will start to call for help. GM, can I punch him in the throat to stop him?"

Flips through Firing Line "Oh. Yes, thereīs a 2 Edge Combat Action for that."

"Ok... weird that I canīt do that without narrative mojo points, but luckily, I have 2 Edge left. Anything else?"

"Yes, you need more Net hits than your opponentīs Agility."

"... WTF? Net Hits? That could be, like, 5 or 6?!"

"8 in this case. Dudeīs augmented. Also, keep in mind that you canīt enhance that roll with Edge because you already have to pay 2 Edge to attempt this in the first place."

"...."

"You also donīt deal damage if you hit ;D"

And thatīs probably the most usable one. You even have to pay 2 Edge and beat a Theshold of you opponentīs Agility with your net hits to simply stop an opponentīs movement with an interrupt Attack. You know, that kind thing you could just do with a -5 Initiative Interrupt Action in 5th Edition? Oh boi, guess that will put end to skirmishing cheese in 6th Edition  ::)

Also, all of these "Called Shots" work a tad bit differently: The Edge Costs vary, as well as the Attribute for the Threshold (itīs always too high nevertheless...), sometimes thereīs even an additional dice pool modifier (negative, of course). Not that this will confuse anyone. Because no one will ever use these in their RAW state.
« Last Edit: <06-02-20/1521:01> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

penllawen

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« Reply #39 on: <06-07-20/0847:54> »
Werenīt there even vague promises made that AR/DR will have a bigger RAW impact in Firing Line? What happened to that?
Were you thinking of this post:
In 5e you could increase Soak to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you could buy enough hits to shake off any damage from a gun.  In 6e you can increase DR to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you've exceeded any Attack Rating you're likely to see.

As a GM I didn't like the huge variance in PC defense and soak pools that you found at 5E tables.  But, IMO, 6E was an over correction as significant investments in DR don't pay "enough" to be worth it.  Dermal Armor, Ortho Skin, Mystic Armor, all really expensive choices for what you gain.

Hopefully future 6E supplements will give some Quality or Edge Actions or something for the high end DR builds.  Something that triggers at +6/+8/+10 or whatever.

Shrug it off!  3 Edge, if your DR is 8 or more higher than an incoming attack that attack does no Damage.

Quality You got nuthin!  If your DR is 6 or more higher than an incoming attack gain +4 Dice on a Charisma + Intimidate check.

ect, ect, ect.   Lots of ways to use the mechanic to make a higher DR mechanically desirable if they wanted to.

Insider tease ... I think you will like Firing Squad
(I don't know what options Firing Squad have that make higher DR more useful; I don't have the book.)

Banshee

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« Reply #40 on: <06-07-20/0930:00> »
Werenīt there even vague promises made that AR/DR will have a bigger RAW impact in Firing Line? What happened to that?
Were you thinking of this post:
In 5e you could increase Soak to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you could buy enough hits to shake off any damage from a gun.  In 6e you can increase DR to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you've exceeded any Attack Rating you're likely to see.

As a GM I didn't like the huge variance in PC defense and soak pools that you found at 5E tables.  But, IMO, 6E was an over correction as significant investments in DR don't pay "enough" to be worth it.  Dermal Armor, Ortho Skin, Mystic Armor, all really expensive choices for what you gain.

Hopefully future 6E supplements will give some Quality or Edge Actions or something for the high end DR builds.  Something that triggers at +6/+8/+10 or whatever.

Shrug it off!  3 Edge, if your DR is 8 or more higher than an incoming attack that attack does no Damage.

Quality You got nuthin!  If your DR is 6 or more higher than an incoming attack gain +4 Dice on a Charisma + Intimidate check.

ect, ect, ect.   Lots of ways to use the mechanic to make a higher DR mechanically desirable if they wanted to.

Insider tease ... I think you will like Firing Squad
(I don't know what options Firing Squad have that make higher DR more useful; I don't have the book.)

For what it's worth I was pretty vague for a lot of reasons ... NDA of course but also because I didn't know what the final version ended up being.

What I was hinting at though was that I knew there was going to be new ways for armor to actually mitigate damage.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Annoch

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« Reply #41 on: <06-08-20/2015:48> »
"Oh shit, that dude will start to call for help. GM, can I punch him in the throat to stop him?"

Flips through Firing Line "Oh. Yes, thereīs a 2 Edge Combat Action for that."

"Ok... weird that I canīt do that without narrative mojo points, but luckily, I have 2 Edge left. Anything else?"

"Yes, you need more Net hits than your opponentīs Agility."

"... WTF? Net Hits? That could be, like, 5 or 6?!"

"8 in this case. Dudeīs augmented. Also, keep in mind that you canīt enhance that roll with Edge because you already have to pay 2 Edge to attempt this in the first place."

"...."

"You also donīt deal damage if you hit ;D"

I'm really glad that I'm not the only one who noticed that.  So many of the edge actions have such a high bar to actually succeed, cost Edge just to try, have so little effect, and somehow don't do any damage. I'm no marital artist but I think a literal throat punch might be somewhat harmful. 

Although this is the game system where a STR 12 troll does the same damage with a battle ax as an anemic Str 1 elf on their death bed...

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #42 on: <06-08-20/2026:56> »
Well remember to keep in mind that 7 or 8 Agility may be the expectation for some PCs... 2 is the average in an NPC's stats.  2 net hits on a mook isn't unreasonable, especially if you maxed out your own Agility....
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #43 on: <06-08-20/2136:37> »
there are actually armor options that do help with damage soak now, although these are a bit gimmicky

Well for the most part the entire rule set is very gimmicky in my opinion. If you are someone who is not into that style then the entire edition is always going to be a hard sell. I myself fall into that category.



Yeah the game as whole feels super gimmicky to me which I am not a fan of. I feel more like I'm paying a deck building game with RPG trappings, so if firing squad doubles down on this it doens't help me much.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #44 on: <06-09-20/0220:36> »
Well remember to keep in mind that 7 or 8 Agility may be the expectation for some PCs... 2 is the average in an NPC's stats.  2 net hits on a mook isn't unreasonable, especially if you maxed out your own Agility....
Only against weak grunts, though. Grunts are ROUGHLY PR-rating in Agility, so at higher PR ratings, this ability would only be useful against Mages.
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