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MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR

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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #15 on: <05-27-20/2255:19> »
I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. I like the idea of uncapped progression. The idea that you can just keep sinking karma in to becoming something on par with an IE or Great Dragon.

However, what I'd like is HUGE narrative draw backs. Just like a Street Sam can become a Cyber Zombie (well...in 4e). But the thing to to unlock all that power requires you to give up your humanity and your willingness to live. That's so fragging cool.

I want that, but for magic.

The deeper you dive in to the metaplanes to unlock the secrets of magic, the less attached you are to the real world. You develop a Dr. Manhattan complex and you just exist beyond your peers and feel extremely detached from others. You start suffering social penalties, and your compassion for others becomes more and more removed and you become more of a hermit. Maybe you suffer stun damage every run showing you're not taking good care of yourself. Running starts to become a chore and distraction from consuming more magical knowledge. And at some point your compose checks fail (or whatever) and you project in to the metaplanes to never return.

With that said. No over summoning. That drek is broken.

Lormyr

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« Reply #16 on: <05-28-20/0857:30> »
Agreed.  But if the +4 cap to Skills is in, Foci are less problematic.  Still cheap though.

Yeah, cheapness is still a serious issue.

Also, small nitpick, I feel like we should stop referring to the interpretation we prefer to as "+4 skill cap", because that wordings still feels like the skill version of attribute caps. A "+4 augmentation maximum to the non-attribute components of a total dice pool" or similar would be better.

I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. I like the idea of uncapped progression. The idea that you can just keep sinking karma in to becoming something on par with an IE or Great Dragon.

Well, folks in opposing camps on whether limited or unlimited progression is best will likely never see eye to eye on the matter because the core philosophy is in direct opposition. I prefer my god mages to be confined to only high fantasy settings myself.

Likewise, for me, narrative penalties are a terrible way to attempt to balance game mechanics. Enhancement to game mechanics, though? Sure.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #17 on: <05-28-20/1029:42> »
Agreed.  But if the +4 cap to Skills is in, Foci are less problematic.  Still cheap though.

Yeah, cheapness is still a serious issue.

Also, small nitpick, I feel like we should stop referring to the interpretation we prefer to as "+4 skill cap", because that wordings still feels like the skill version of attribute caps. A "+4 augmentation maximum to the non-attribute components of a total dice pool" or similar would be better.

I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. I like the idea of uncapped progression. The idea that you can just keep sinking karma in to becoming something on par with an IE or Great Dragon.

Well, folks in opposing camps on whether limited or unlimited progression is best will likely never see eye to eye on the matter because the core philosophy is in direct opposition. I prefer my god mages to be confined to only high fantasy settings myself.

Likewise, for me, narrative penalties are a terrible way to attempt to balance game mechanics. Enhancement to game mechanics, though? Sure.

I'll defer to SSDR's vocabulary choice then on the cap.  ; )

As far as Limited or Unlimited Advancement goes, I'm good with either.  But it needs to be equal access, can't just be Awakened characters that have unlimited dice pools.  That would require some totally new to the franchise advancement options for Mundanes, which I felt to be out of scope for the conversation.   

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #18 on: <05-28-20/1039:40> »
Let's leave the question of augmented limit for skills for other avenues.  Plenty of them out there already :D


Back to the top of ending magic stuff:


I miss how you could just flat out attack the astral forms of things like spells and foci with astral combat/mana combat spells in prior editions.  Frankly, I'm not totally convinced you CAN'T end a sustained Increased Reflexes or break a Power Focus by nuking it with a manabolt anymore.  But yes, it sure looks like you're "supposed" to end spells/enchantments via dispelling and disjoining in more recent editions. 

Even if grounding is (justifiably) retired, it'd give MagicRun players something to think about if any and every passing spirit or mage has the ability from astral space to just thump an active focus or sustained/quickened spell just for the lulz of it.  Also, might think twice about spending all sorts of nuyen and karma for a big focus if you can lose it at any time with basically no warning.
« Last Edit: <05-28-20/1053:13> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #19 on: <05-28-20/1052:01> »
Let's leave the question of augmented limit for skills for other avenues.  Plenty of them out there already :D


Back to the top of ending magic stuff:


I miss how you could just flat out attack the astral forms of things like spells and foci with astral combat/mana combat spells in prior editions.  Frankly, I'm not totally convinced you CAN'T anymore in more recent editions.  But yes, it sure looks like you're "supposed" to end spells/enchantments via dispelling and disjoining. 

Even if grounding is (justifiably) retired, it'd give MagicRun players something to think about if any and every passing spirit or mage has the ability from astral space to just thump an active focus or sustained/quickened spell just for the lulz of it.  Also, might think twice about spending all sorts of nuyen and karma for a big focus if you can lose it at any time with basically no warning.

I still allow grounding in my home games and even use through quickened spells back to the original caster ... goes a long way in making sure my players don't go overboard on foci and quickening
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #20 on: <05-28-20/1054:46> »
Heh, you slipped me while I was editing for clarity.

Yeah, YMMV on grounding.  I think turning your F7 Power Focus into a nonmagical, mundane item for the low low cost of a little drain from a Manabolt serves the same purpose :)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #21 on: <05-28-20/1058:27> »
Heh, you slipped me while I was editing for clarity.

Yeah, YMMV on grounding.  I think turning your F7 Power Focus into a nonmagical, mundane item for the low low cost of a little drain from a Manabolt serves the same purpose :)

Yeah, I allow that too
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Lormyr

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« Reply #22 on: <05-28-20/1139:50> »
Actual play for me in the live era of grounding never happened since it was before my time mind you, but I always found that rule atrocious. It's just too adversarial / fuck youish to the player for my tastes. I'd rather just see a balanced system that doesn't require fuck yous in order to help balance things.

Vampire the Masquerade is the very best example of that to me. You could spend a point of WP to get an auto success on a roll, which was often all you needed. When it came to mental and social powers, you could just auto inflict your ability on anyone if you really wanted too. God awful design, even if I love the setting.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: <05-28-20/1201:36> »
As I noted on Facebook regarding grounding and alternatives: To me, an active Focus should be like a gun: If it's 'hacked', you need to take time to get it ready for usage again. Not like a wireless grenade, where if it's 'hacked', the entire group dies. Bruteforcing them out of commission should be possible, but not wiping the entire group through an invisible enemy.
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Banshee

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« Reply #24 on: <05-28-20/1204:52> »
It's no more of an FU then grenades are, and ultimately it (for my home group at least) ends up just being a deterent to escalation. If they players keep things reasonable it doesn't get used. Just like with grenades, if my players don't use them neither do I.

But overall I would agree that an actual balanced system would be a better option, but until they let me take a machete to the magic system that is a long shot of getting implemented.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #25 on: <05-28-20/1223:10> »
It's no more of an FU then grenades are, and ultimately it (for my home group at least) ends up just being a deterent to escalation. If they players keep things reasonable it doesn't get used. Just like with grenades, if my players don't use them neither do I.

But overall I would agree that an actual balanced system would be a better option, but until they let me take a machete to the magic system that is a long shot of getting implemented.

Very true, but I also know that you are acutely aware of my stance on grenades. :p

I'd much rather see everything be relatively balanced to, but I also believe that they are unlikely to change their position on it this late in the game. Since we are here and in the right thread though, what would your changes look like if you were given the thumbs up to take care of business?
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Banshee

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« Reply #26 on: <05-28-20/1316:55> »
Well now that you bring it up, I have rewritten the magic system to use in my own game I'm in the middle of developing.  Still in early stages so I will just touch on the highlights ...

Drain is a set value. So no more drain test and no such thing as casting a spell for "free", instead you have a mana pool that is determined by your "magic" attribute and refreshes with rest or meditation. When you run out of mana pool drain comes off your health track.
I keep Force pretty much the same as 6E so over casting just means taking more drain.
Suataining requires spending "X" mana points per round.
No quickening.
All foci are just mana batteries.
No over summoning and spirits are nerfed.. basically just mystic animal companions for a visual of power level.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #27 on: <05-28-20/1323:20> »
I see a lot of people mention quickening, but I rarely see that by itself as a problem. The actual problem to me is the number of spells in some editions that buff up. SR5 was nuts because of it, but at present, quickening in SR6 is no big deal at all.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Banshee

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« Reply #28 on: <05-28-20/1329:00> »
I see a lot of people mention quickening, but I rarely see that by itself as a problem. The actual problem to me is the number of spells in some editions that buff up. SR5 was nuts because of it, but at present, quickening in SR6 is no big deal at all.

The problem with quickening is that it allows you to use all of those buffs on an effectively permanent basis. The buffs themselves are no more powerful than cyber/gear options just "cheaper"

My change still allows for the buffs but you have to take into account how fast it will drain your mana pool.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #29 on: <05-28-20/1335:06> »
That statement is fairly accurate for SR6, but is not even remotely close in SR5. 5 had a substantial number of buffs that ware could not duplicate. Combat Sense, Deflection, Element Aura, Astral Armor just to name a few.

But I am personally of the school of thought that if anyone should be allowed to have permanent buffs, everyone should be. How precisely we choose to allow that to occur is debatable.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling