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[SR5] Addiction Ratings

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Jabberwocky

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« on: <05-13-20/0730:19> »
I've recently started playing SR5, and I'm working on a character who uses drugs on occasion.  Most of the rules are pretty easy to understand, but I'm having a really hard time processing Addiction Ratings and the intervals between having to make an Addiction Test.

I'll start with a really easy example that's confusing me.  Let's say you have a standard, legal simsense chip of, I don't know, the latest Neil the Ork Barbarian installment (Addiction Rating 2, Addiction Threshold 1).  Why a basic simflick is addictive at all to start with is a whole other kettle of fish.  Anyway, let's also say you have the exact same simsense, but modified up to Dreamchip BTL levels (Addiction Rating 6, Addiction Threshold 1).

From my understanding of the rules on SR5 p. 414, you can safely use the base simsense once every (11 - Addiction Rating) weeks without having to make an Addiction Test.  So fine, as long as you only watch your legal copy of Neil the Ork Barbarian once every 9 weeks, you don't risk getting addicted.  That's easy to grasp.

My problem comes from the fact that if you watch the exact same simflick cranked up to BTL levels as a Dreamchip, you can safely watch it once every 5 weeks without having to make an Addiction Test.

That makes absolutely no sense to me.  How is that supposed to be more addictive than the legal simsense when you risk getting addicted less often?

It gets worse when I look at some of the other drugs that are available, K-10 being the most bewildering one.  It has an Addiction Rating of 11, meaning you can take a hit of K-10 once every 0 weeks without having to risk an Addiction Test.  Soykaf, on the other hand, risks getting you addicted if you have two cups within two-and-a-half months.  Sure, the Addiction Threshold between the two is worse (by one whole point), but that's a moot point relative to the part that's giving me headaches.

Anyway, could anyone help me sort this out?  Is it a snafu with the rules, or am I really, really misunderstanding something really fundamental about the addiction rules?
« Last Edit: <05-13-20/0817:31> by Jabberwocky »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <05-13-20/0825:04> »
You missed the part where every week you didn't consume, the Addiction Threshold goes down.

So day 1: I use Simsense.
Week 1: I count as having used Simsense this week, threshold is 1.
Week 2: Somewhere this week I use again, because I love Neil.
Weeks 3 to 8: Every week I used.
Week 9: I lay off the chips for this entire week. At the end of week 9, 'didn't use this entire week', so threshold is lowered from 1 to 0. Threshold hit 0, so no test.

Now let's say I use Dreamchip BTL. AR6 = after 5 weeks need to make a test.

Weeks 1 to 4: I consume.
Week 5: I lay off the BTL for 1 week.
End of week 5: Threshold is reduced to 0, poof.

Now let's look at a BTL Tripchip, test after 3 weeks.
Week 1: Counts as used.
Week 2: No use, threshold down to 2.
Week 3: No use, threshold down to 1. Make Addiction test at threshold 1.
Week 4: No use, threshold down to 0. Stop checking.
Week 5: I use, we start the cycle fresh: This is week 1 of the new cycle.
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Jabberwocky

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« Reply #2 on: <05-13-20/0843:54> »
No, I get that the Addiction Threshold goes down between intervals (though my wording was awful in the first post; apologies).

Okay, so you have a completely clean person with no addictions.  They can use a Dreamchip BTL once every five weeks (11 - Addiction Rating of 6) without having to even worry about the Threshold increasing on their Addiction Test.  But with the Standard Simsense, they have to go nine weeks (11 - Addiction Rating of 2) before they can use another one without that risk.  That part is correct, right?

So how is the former more addictive than the latter?

And with that said, your examples are sort of strange to me.  Why are you having the example character using the two drugs at different intervals and different situations? 

Assuming two otherwise identical characters are already addicted and they've both slotted their respective simsense (Standard vs Dreamchip BTL).  Six weeks go by, and they both slot their respective simsense again.  Can you explain the differences between those two characters? 

In a nutshell, I just don't understand this line of the rule:  "This means that substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze) could get you hooked in a single dose."  It doesn't seem to jive with the previous sentences.  How is K-10 getting you hooked on a single dose but other drugs with a lower Addiction Rating but equal Threshold aren't as risky even though the interval between the Threshold decreasing is longer?

Even if you assume the interval is 1 day rather than 0 weeks, you still wind up with this, no?

Week 1:  Character pops a dose of K-10.
Week 1, Day Two:  Threshold drops by 1 to 2.
Week 1, Day Three:  Threshold drops by 1 to 1.
Week 1, Day Four:  Threshold drops by 1 to 0.  He's free to take another hit with a reset Threshold.

Compare that to someone taking Cram (Addiction Rating 4, Threshold 3).

Week 1:  Character pops a dose of Cram.
Week 7:  Threshold finally drops by 1 to 2.
Week 14:  Threshold drops by 1 to 1.
Week 21:  Threshold drops by 1 to 0.  Now, nearly half a year later, he can finally take another hit of Cram with a reset Threshold rather than increasing it to 4.
« Last Edit: <05-13-20/0900:21> by Jabberwocky »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <05-13-20/0855:04> »
Why are you stating you must consume a second time before the counter starts ticking?

The reason I used different usage intervals was to illustrate how the threshold goes down and thus someone with Dreamchips can use without problems for 4 weeks straight as long as they kick the habit during week 5, while with Tripchips you will face a test even if you use once.

Quote
Every time you use an addictive substance during (11
— Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an
Addiction Test. The clock on this keeps ticking even if you
skip a week, but every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1 (it returns to normal
when you use again). If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again. This means that
substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze)
could get you hooked in a single dose.

As for your question. So legal-strength AR 2, AT 1. This means you test after 11-2 = 9 weeks. Dreamchip AR 6, AT 1. Test after 11-6 = 5 weeks.

- Day 1: They use. This starts the clock.
- Day 7: End of week 1 of the cycle. They consumed this week, so the threshold remains the same.
- Day 14: End of week 2 of the cycle. They did not consume this week, so the threshold is reduced. This reduces threshold from 1 to 0. Cycle ends, we stop doing weekly checks.
- Day 31: month 2 starts, both have to roll a withdrawal test to resist not wanting to use again.
- Day 43: They use. They weren't on an active cycle. This starts the clock anew, day 43 is now the first day of week 1 of a fresh addiction  cycle.
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Jabberwocky

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« Reply #4 on: <05-13-20/0905:51> »
Sorry, I went back and edited my post, but I was apparently not fast enough.

Hmm, I think the easiest way to explain my point is by having you describe the following to me, and maybe I'll see where I'm misunderstanding something:  Please give two examples of otherwise identical characters with a Mild Addiction to their respective simsense.  One is addicted to and using Legal Simsense chips (Addiction Rating 2, Threshold 1), the other is using BTL Dreamchips (Addiction Rating 6, Threshold 1).

What happens if they slot chips on Week 1 then again on Week 7?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: <05-13-20/0910:51> »
First of all: The threshold drops every WEEK they didn't use. Not every full cycle.

Second: There's no such thing as a free hit. If you use when you weren't on an addiction cycle, you start an addiction cycle. You don't have to already be addicted for this.

Addiction Ratings of 11 are kind of bollocks, because we still only test once per week, meaning there's no difference between AR 10 and AR 11+. Unless the GM rules 'AR 11 means you have a cycle of 1 week, PLUS an addiction test directly after every usage'.
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Jabberwocky

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« Reply #6 on: <05-13-20/0918:49> »
So what is the (11 - Addiction Rating) interval about then, if the Threshold drops automatically every week?

You have two guys.  One takes a drink of Soykaf (Rating 1, Threshold 2) while the other downs a Beer (Rating 3, Threshold 2).  Two weeks later without having another drink, and their Threshold is 0.  They take a sip on week 3, what happens?

Then, same scenario, except they go 9 weeks without drinking (so the Soykaf is still within their 11-Rating window while the Alcohol drinker isn't). 

What's the difference between those two scenarios?  Keeping in mind that the implication is that Alcohol is more addictive than Soykaf due to the higher Addiction Rating.
« Last Edit: <05-13-20/0946:25> by Jabberwocky »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <05-13-20/1010:50> »
The 11-AR interval is for how often you have to make an Addiction Test. The threshold only drops if you do not use that entire week.

For your example:
- Day 1, they consume, week 1 starts
- Day 7, end of week 1, threshold doesn't reduce because they used during week 1.
- Day 14, end of week 2, threshold reduced to 1.
- Day 21, end of week 3: Both consumed during week 3, so threshold resets to 2.

Let's say both consume on day 1, on day 15 and then not anymore.

Week 1: Consumed, clock starts ticking.
Week 2: Not consumed this entire week, "every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1", threshold down to 1.
Week 3: Consumed. "[Addiction Threshold] returns to normal when you use again", AT back to 2.
Week 4: Not consumed this entire week, "every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1", threshold down to 1.
Week 5: Not consumed this entire week, "every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1", threshold down to 0. "If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again", so cycle ended. We no longer are tracking.
Week 10: Since we are no longer tracking we don't care at all right now what they consumed before.

Let's look at two other scenarios:
- Both kept drinking without ever taking a break. In 40 weeks, Soykaffer went through 4 full cycles and faced 4 Addiction Tests. The Beer-drinker went through 5 cycles, so faced 5 Addiction Tests.
- Both started drinking on day 1, and drank for the final time on day 49, final day of week 7. At the end of week 8, the Threshold goes down from 2 to 1. Beer-drinker has to make an Addiction Test. At the end of week 9 (first week of the new cycle of the Beer-drinker, ninth week of the first cycle of the Soykaf-drinker), Threshold goes down from 1 to 0 and their cycles end. Until they consume again.

Let's look at Kamikaze and Jazz. Two runners, named after their favourite combat drugs, had a lengthy run that took 10 days, both on first and last day they were forced into combat and consumed drugs. Kamikaze: AR 9 = cycle 2 weeks, AT 3. Jazz: AR 8 = cycle 3 weeks, AT 3.

Day 1: Consumed, cycle starts.
Week 1: Consumed this week, threshold remains maxed.
Week 2: Consumed this week, threshold remains maxed. Kamikaze faces an Addiction test of Threshold 3.
Week 3: Did not consume this week, thresholds go down to 2. Jazz faces an Addiction test of Threshold 2.
Week 4: Did not consume this week, thresholds go down to 1. Kamikaze faces an Addiction test of Threshold 1.
Week 5: Did not consume this week, thresholds go down to 0. Cycles end.

Another scenario: A Street Sam used Shade to take a quick trip into the metaplanes and fight a Spirit there. AR 7 = 4-week cycle, threshold = 3.
Week 1: Consumed this week, threshold remains maxed.
Week 2: Did not consume, threshold becomes 2.
Week 3: Did not consume, threshold becomes 1.
Week 4: Did not consume, threshold becomes 0. No test, cycle ends.
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Jabberwocky

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« Reply #8 on: <05-13-20/1548:12> »
The 11-AR interval is for how often you have to make an Addiction Test. The threshold only drops if you do not use that entire week.

Except it's... not.  It just measures how often you have to make an Addiction Test if you use the drug within that time frame.  It's right there in the very first sentence of the relevant paragraph.

Quote from: SR5
Every time you use an addictive substance during (11 — Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction Test.

At no point does that paragraph say anything about how often you have to make an Addiction Test unless you consume a dose of the drug during that interval.

Any even if what you say were true, what's the point?  If the threshold goes down by 1 every week, the highest threshold of the core drugs is 3, and once it hits 0 you're off the hook... then why are there any intervals over 3 weeks at all?  The only possible reason is in the case of repeated dosages, but again... that means the less addictive drugs are -more- addictive because you have more chances of increasing your threshold with repeated uses.

I appreciate you trying to help and that you have a certain understanding of how the rules should work.  It's just not meshing up with what's actually written in the rules.

That said, a couple of points.  First, you ignored the entire point of the two examples I gave in my last post and went off showing the two people using the drugs in completely different ways.  So that didn't help at all.

Second, and let me quote a part of your post here:

Quote
- Day 1, they consume, week 1 starts
- Day 7, end of week 1, threshold doesn't reduce because they used during week 1.
- Day 14, end of week 2, threshold reduced to 1.
- Day 21, end of week 3: Both consumed during week 3, so threshold resets to 2.

Your first two lines seem contrary to the point of using weeks at all.  That means the minimum interval would be 2 weeks of real time before the threshold has a chance to lower by one, and there's plenty of (the most addictive of all the) drugs that have an interval of only 1 week.  Nevermind that that still means they're less addictive than the drugs that are actually less addictive, like soykaf or legal simsense, because several of the most addictive substances in the game have intervals that are shorter than the amount of time it takes to get the threshold to 0.
« Last Edit: <05-13-20/1630:43> by Jabberwocky »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: <05-13-20/1751:13> »
I rarely double-post but honestly I think I should here, since addressing things combined seems to be distracting you.

First.
The 11-AR interval is for how often you have to make an Addiction Test. The threshold only drops if you do not use that entire week.

Except it's... not.  It just measures how often you have to make an Addiction Test if you use the drug within that time frame.  It's right there in the very first sentence of the relevant paragraph.

Quote from: SR5
Every time you use an addictive substance during (11 — Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction Test.

At no point does that paragraph say anything about how often you have to make an Addiction Test unless you consume a dose of the drug during that interval.
Except that it literally does the next line.

Quote
Every time you use an addictive substance during (11
— Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an
Addiction Test. The clock on this keeps ticking even if you
skip a week
, but every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1
(it returns to normal
when you use again). If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again.
This means that
substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze)
could get you hooked in a single dose.
In other words:
- You face an Addiction Test every (11-AR) weeks. With an AR of 8, that means every 3 weeks. With an AR of 2, every 9 weeks.
- If you use drugs during a week, your Addiction Threshold goes back to maximum at the end of the week
- If you do no use drugs during a week, your Addiction Threshold goes down by 1
- If the Addiction Threshold hits 0, the cycle ends
- If at the end of a week, you're at an Addiction Test interval, you do an Addiction Test at the current Addiction Threshold

Let's look at it from a day-to-day base which transforms into a week-by-week base:
- If you use during a day, there are 2 options
A: You're in a cycle already. Your current week in the cycle counts as having indulged. At the end of the week, the Addiction Threshold goes back to its initial maxed value.
B: You're not in a cycle already. Cycle starts. Your current week in the cycle counts as having indulged. Addiction Threshold starts at its initial maxed value.

- If you don't use during a day, there are 3 options
C: You weren't in a cycle. You may start facing withdrawal symptoms if you already were addicted, but you're not going to face Addiction Tests until you enter a cycle and reach the end of it
D: You're in a cycle. It's the final day of the week, and you haven't indulged at all. The threshold is reduced by 1.
E: You're in a cycle. You're not at the final day of the week yet. Whether you indulge in the rest of the week determines if you're in case D or A.

Whenever you're at the end of the cycle, you do an Addiction Test, and a new cycle starts. The Threshold carries over.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: <05-13-20/1759:32> »
Any even if what you say were true, what's the point?  If the threshold goes down by 1 every week, the highest threshold of the core drugs is 3, and once it hits 0 you're off the hook... then why are there any intervals over 3 weeks at all?  The only possible reason is in the case of repeated dosages, but again... that means the less addictive drugs are -more- addictive because you have more chances of increasing your threshold with repeated uses.

Soykaf has a cycle-length of 10 weeks and a Threshold of 2. If I consume Soykaf for 8 weeks straight, then do not indulge for 2 weeks, the Threshold goes down to 0, so at the end of the cycle my threshold is 0 so I'm off the hook.

Kamikaze has a 2-week cycle. If I use Kamikaze 8 weeks straight, then do not use for 3 weeks, it means I face a Threshold-3 test in weeks 2, 4, 6, 8. In week 9 the Threshold goes down to 2, in week 10 it goes down to 1, I face a Threshold-1 test. Week 11 it goes down to 0.

On a FRESH cycle, which you start by consuming on day 1 and then you do not use again until the threshold's done, Kamikaze takes 4 weeks to quit the habit: First week threshold remains maxed, afterwards it goes down 1 per week. I face a test at Threshold 2 after 2 weeks, and no threshold left after 4 weeks.

Jazz, on the other hand, has the same threshold but a longer cycle. If I use once then try to kick the habit immediately, I face a test at Threshold 1 after 3 weeks, and again after 4 weeks the cycle is cut short because I'm off the hook at threshold 0.

If you use legal-strength Simsense, with a cycle of 9 weeks, all you have to do is use for a maximum of 8 weeks and stay clean for 1 week. Threshold hits 0, cycle ends, no Addiction Test.

A Tripchip, on the other hand, is nasty: It's like Jazz, so you're guaranteed at least 1 Addiction Test even if you only use for 1 week. And like Jazz and Kamikaze, you need to stay clean for at least 3 weeks to reset the clock.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #11 on: <05-13-20/1806:10> »

That said, a couple of points.  First, you ignored the entire point of the two examples I gave in my last post and went off showing the two people using the drugs in completely different ways.  So that didn't help at all.
I have no idea what you mean. You gave me specific scenarios. I deliberately first tackled your explicit scenario. I noted the tiny problem with said scenario and formulated a few slightly different scenarios to illustrate in more detail how things work. Why are you claiming I ignored the point of your scenarios?

And then I ended with combat-drug scenarios, where again I made sure that all three drug-scenarios dealt with the same kind of usage to compare the options, and you claim I gave examples with 'completely different ways'? I am utterly confused why you're suddenly accusing me of acting in bad faith.
The 11-AR interval is for how often you have to make an Addiction Test. The threshold only drops if you do not use that entire week.

For your example:
- Day 1, they consume, week 1 starts
- Day 7, end of week 1, threshold doesn't reduce because they used during week 1.
- Day 14, end of week 2, threshold reduced to 1.
- Day 21, end of week 3: Both consumed during week 3, so threshold resets to 2.

Let's say both consume on day 1, on day 15 and then not anymore.

Week 1: Consumed, clock starts ticking.
Week 2: Not consumed this entire week, "every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1", threshold down to 1.
Week 3: Consumed. "[Addiction Threshold] returns to normal when you use again", AT back to 2.
Week 4: Not consumed this entire week, "every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1", threshold down to 1.
Week 5: Not consumed this entire week, "every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1", threshold down to 0. "If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again", so cycle ended. We no longer are tracking.
Week 10: Since we are no longer tracking we don't care at all right now what they consumed before.

Let's look at two other scenarios:
- Both kept drinking without ever taking a break. In 40 weeks, Soykaffer went through 4 full cycles and faced 4 Addiction Tests. The Beer-drinker went through 5 cycles, so faced 5 Addiction Tests.
- Both started drinking on day 1, and drank for the final time on day 49, final day of week 7. At the end of week 8, the Threshold goes down from 2 to 1. Beer-drinker has to make an Addiction Test. At the end of week 9 (first week of the new cycle of the Beer-drinker, ninth week of the first cycle of the Soykaf-drinker), Threshold goes down from 1 to 0 and their cycles end. Until they consume again.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: <05-13-20/1827:05> »
So, maybe, let's reset the discussion. The following is how I parse the RAW into action-points. Which of these points are you stating does not match the rules in the book?

1- Addiction Rating translates to the Addiction-Cycle duration
2- At the end of each Cycle, you face an Addiction Test at the CURRENT Addiction Threshold, and start a new cycle

3- Every week you indulge, RESETS the CURRENT Addiction Threshold to the value in the table
4- Every week you do NOT indulge, reduces the CURRENT Addiction Threshold with 1

5- If the CURRENT Addiction Threshold reaches 0, the Cycle is broken off and you stop taking Addiction Tests
6- Next time you indulge, you start a NEW Cycle fresh at max threshold and week 1

7- Addiction Ratings of 11+ are not properly handled by the rules and require GM-decisions
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <05-13-20/1855:52> »
Since SRM changed the addiction rules for organized play, I had to reread and digest the CRB rules for addiction.

I have to say, basically I think they don't work as is.  By the rule, you only ever test when you take the substance.  If you take kamikaze once and don't get addicted, you never have to roll again if you never take another dose.  Which clearly flies against the intent of the rules, which even go on to say that's an example of something you can get hooked on even after only taking it once.

Well, technically, that's true for anything.  By the way it's worded, you always have to test every time you take an addictive substance.  So of course you can potentially get hooked on any given use :P

What appears to be intended is that you KEEP making addiction rolls for some period of time after taking the substance, potentially even if it was only once.  Despite apparently assuming you test for addiction after having taken something addictive for some period of weeks after that taste, the rules on pg 414 still only state you test when you take the substance.  So.  Meh.  One of the many things that 5e never got errata for.

I'd say the intent is you test for addiction every time you take a substance, AND at least once a week following that event even if you're completely clean.  Until the threshold wears down to 0, at which point you safely avoided addiction.


RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #14 on: <05-13-20/1928:50> »
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11865.0
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=4d83013cfad606ee&id=4D83013CFAD606EE%213119&authkey=%21AOEL%5FYaXcR%5FyFMc
https://i.imgur.com/2QSrwFa.jpg

Jus read those and decide why those are wrong for yourself. I'm out. I've had it with constant claims that I am ignoring people and that the rules are not how I explain I'm reading them. You can maybe argue RAI, but don't constantly tell me I'm misquoting the rules and expect me to still be willing to discuss this.

'You get a fine whenever you drive faster than the speedlimit' does not mean you get a fine whenever you drive.
« Last Edit: <05-13-20/1932:19> by Michael Chandra »
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