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[SR6] Hacking devices within PANs / Hosts -> one or two hacks?

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jtkirk22

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« on: <04-05-20/1240:00> »
Hi,

1. Hacking devices within hosts:

Code: [Select]
Gaining access to a host will
allow interaction with the
icons and devices on the inside.
(p. 185)

Does that "interaction" imply that a hacker has automatically have access to that device, if he successfully hacked a host? Or does it require a second bruteforce/backdoor to access the device (e. g. a camera)?

2.) Hacking devices within a PAN:

Code: [Select]
Generally speaking, in order to get
to a device attached to a PAN, one
must _FIRST_ gain access to that PAN.
(p. 173)

Does "first" mean, that a hacker has to do a "second" hack (bruteforce/backdoor) to grant access to a slaved device within an PAN?

In addition, the German version of the core rulebook says something interesting about device rating that is not part of the original rules. Maybe it will be added later one?

Code: [Select]
If a device has no attributes, the Data Processing
and Firewall rating of the device is equal to their
device rating (p. 245).

This would mean that most devices would be better-advised NOT to be part of a PAN that is build around a kommlink, if there device rating is higher than the kommlinks data processing/firewall rating. It would only make sense, if hacking a device slaved within a PAN would require two hacks: the kommlink/cyberdeck + device itsself. Otherwise, in most cases, a slaved device woudn't have any benefits in a PAN.

Would be glad about help!

Thanks in advance!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <04-05-20/1249:46> »
1) access is measured by host/PAN, not by device.  So yes once you have access to a host, you have that same level of access to everything inside/controlled by that host.

2) no.  same answer as 1).  Once you have hacked access to the PAN, you have that same access to everything in the PAN.  What the "first" means in the quoted rule is a reference to most hacking actions not being possible at "outsider" user access level, so usually you "first" must gain better-than-outsider level access.

3) Can't comment on the German rules.  In a house rules context, make of it what you will (although, note that that rule puts commlinks in an awkward position where their D/F stats are far lower than their device ratings...). And yes, as you observed, that rule means you're better off NOT protecting your gear!

In an official context, the german language rules mean nothing to the english language rules.  In the english language version, that quote is very much not true.  If a device lacks a value for a stat, then that value is 0.  (see the Host Hacking Example sidebar on pg 178- the host has no spider so it rolls 0 dice for Willpower/Intuition to defend against hacking.)  The benefit of being slaved to a pan is that you can sub the D/F stats of the commlink (and the mental attributes of the commlink's owner) down to the slaved devices in place of their (presumed) 0s. 
« Last Edit: <04-05-20/1254:51> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Finstersang

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« Reply #2 on: <04-05-20/1337:36> »
Just a fun note:
P.174 (+ Errata): "The Data Processing attribute is the limit of how many devices you can slave to it."

In other words: RAW, actual functioning PANs/WANs with some kind of protection aren´t really possible with commlinks. 3 of the 6 commlinks have zeroes in their D/F Array, which means that they can´t have Data Processing (and as such, slaves) and an actual Firewall at the same time. Even with the best Commlink in the CRB, you can either slave 1(!) other device in Firewall 3 PAN or a whopping 3 devices to a Firewall 1 PAN.

Hard to tell if that is actually intentional (a deliberate buff to hackers and riggers?) or just yet another argle bargle foofaraw... Are all the "Standard Consumer" PAN really supposed to be just consisting of 3-4 devices at maximum?

And yes, the german version doesn´t make sense either  ::)
« Last Edit: <04-05-20/1343:32> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <04-05-20/1344:51> »
unofficially, I find that the best way to reconcile the device limit is to say that's only the number of devices you can SLAVE.  You can PROTECT as many as you want, where you don't flow the D/F stats (which are rather small anyway) down but you still extend the PAN owner's mental attributes.

officially... yes the device limit makes PANs very difficult to use effectively.  Although there's no rule against daisychaining commlinks this time around, and since you can clearly have multiple devices contributing to one persona (cyberdeck + cyberjack...) there's no reason to say you can't.  So if you have lots of devices you want to protect, just buy lots of commlinks and set up a complicated pyramid scheme to protect them all. Top of the PAN is a 2/1 or 3/1. Naturally you swap D/F for maximum firewall, and the 1 device you can protect is in turn another commlink, running 0 firewall (because the PAN already is getting the 2 or 3 from the top commlink) and maximum DP, which in turn connects to more commlinks. Ultimately you assign a 1/0 commlink to each individual device you want to protect, and it's 2 or more tiers removed from the top commlink in the PAN assigning its firewall to the whole complicated mess.

Or, as I prefer, just ignore the # limit on devices.


« Last Edit: <04-05-20/1402:12> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Finstersang

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« Reply #4 on: <04-05-20/1404:29> »
Ignoring the limit could be a solution. However, Data Processing has almost no value then compared to Firewall...
Hmmm. Maybe a Limit of Device Rating PLUS the current Data Processing Attribute?
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <04-05-20/1406:10> »
Ignoring the limit could be a solution. However, Data Processing has almost no value then compared to Firewall...
Hmmm. Maybe a Limit of Device Rating PLUS the current Data Processing Attribute?

If you're performing matrix/rigging actions, there's still a hell of a role for DP.  But sure, if you're not a hacker or rigger: if you ignore # of device limits then there is no role for DP. However, I don't find that to be a big deal.  YMMV.

Device Rating + DP could work as a house rule.  It still results in the need for a stupid daisychain pyramid though, as most runners will have at least half a dozen or so items that give wireless bonuses and warrant protection.  But it'd absolutely cut down on the sheer number of commlinks necessary to protect everything.
« Last Edit: <04-05-20/1430:36> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #6 on: <04-05-20/1849:45> »
As a street SAM player I would like to make sure I understand this so I don't have some set off any grenades I have or some such.

So If my device, lets say my gun, is not protected by anything. A hacker would just need to have the proper access to it before he could do stuff to the gun.

1) Data Spike: outsider is all that is needed so on turn one the hacker could start trying to put damage on my gun to make it malfunction or brick it. Question though, how many matrix damage boxes does my gun have? I am thinking 8 since it doesn't have a Device rating and so (DR/2)+8 would just be 8. Page 174.

2) If he wanted to control the device to say eject the clip he would need to first have user access. To do so, he would have to use a major action on turn one to gain user access via brute force since probe takes minutes to do. then, if he succeeds he would be able to control device on his second major action. I would be alerted to the intrusion though. For defense against the Brute force what would I use? What is the device rating on a gun? I am thinking it is 0 since one is not listed and also according to page 174 "If the device doesn't possess one or more of the Matrix attributes, then the applicable attribute is treated as if it were 0."

3) Adding the weapon to his PAN does not seem to slow the hacker down or hinder him from doing any of the above since gaining an access level to the PAN gives the hacker access to the devices on the PAN. The only thing I can see that it gives me is access to the device ratings of the commlink to use for protection use which at best is 3/1 compared to the 0's in all of the guns attributes, correct?

4) To any of the above I could run all my electronics in silent mode to increase the number of actions to access my equipment by one minor since the hacker is probably using a Deck, Jack, or has Resonance for the perception test. The hacker would need to spot the target device. This also brings up a question on Matrix perception is it one test to spot any hidden target singular or any hidden targets plural? Reading the first sentence versus the last of the actual action has me wonder which is true. The second Paragraph under matrix perception on page 178 makes me think it is singular.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <04-05-20/1905:39> »
1) Unfortunately, there isn't a reprint of the chart from 5e giving you guidelines on what Device Ratings should be for devices that don't have one explicitly given.  However, I don't believe they should be presumed to be 0 in absence of an explicit stat (see the example of drones using a Device Rating equal to their Sensors).  of course that doesn't help you if you don't have/didn't play 5e.  As a rule of thumb, if it's not a matrix comms device, assume the device rating isn't going to give a Matrix Condition Monitor any higher than 10.  Since you round up, MCMs should always be at least 9.

2) If he wanted to Control Device, yes he needs access.  However, if what he wants to do is make your gun eject the clip, that's something that can be done via Spoof Command (make the gun think YOU said to eject the clip) and that can be done as an Outsider.  Note that this exact same action can be used on your grenade, making it think YOU said to explode inside your pocket.

3) Adding it to your own PAN is not going to slow down a good hacker very much.  A crappy hacker, maybe.  If you have a great commlink and/or great mental stats.  The ideal situation is for your team to have a Matrix specialist (Rigger, Decker, TM) and slave your drek to THAT runner's PAN.  But yes, failing having a matrix defender, you'll add the firewall of your commlink plus your relevant mental stat for every device in your PAN when those values are better than what the device has on its own (which should be basically all the time)

4) Running silent won't help you much.  Unlike in 5e, Matrix Perception isn't versus one device selected blindly.  One Matrix Perception roll is simultaneously checked against every silent device in the hacker's vicinity.  Rolling your Willpower + 0 Sleaze dice versus a hacker's Matrix Perception pool is a virtual guaranteed failure. 

If you don't have a Rigger or Hacker in the team, you're better off just running wireless-off entirely.  Forfeit your wireless bonuses until you CAN get a matrix specialist for your team.  Well, that, or take your chances and hope the opposition doesn't try hacking your stuff.  See the "Turning it off" rules for wireless on pg. 247.  Note that it's a big difference from 5e in that it's 1 device turned wireless off for 1 minor action, rather than *everything* for a free action!  And there's an Electronics Skill test involved to boot (so you might wanna get at least 1 in Electronics)


5) You didn't ask, but also take note: Unlike 5e, damage on the Matrix Condition  Monitor imposes dice penalties exactly in the same manner as wounds does on a Physical/Stun CM.  If your gun suffers 3 matrix damage from a Data Spike, you suffer -1 dice when using that gun.  Or that cyberware.  Or etc.
« Last Edit: <04-05-20/1915:08> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #8 on: <04-05-20/1958:53> »
Well that is unfortunate. Especially if the matrix specialist can only guard only a few devices. (Data Processing) and yes I missed spoof.

I do have access to all editions of the game and have played for quite a while but i was wanting to know how 6th edition deals with a device that doesn't have a listing or attribute and the text seems pretty clear that they have a 0 attribute if it is not listed and without contradictory information at this time I will stick as close to the book as I can and say that they also have a 0 of there DR. This means that a Pan on a trans-avalon would at least give you a better protection over not having a PAN even though it is only a 1 it will at least give a single die to defend against an brute force attack and a least give 4 dice versus Spoof.

I am not sure I agree with your answer to number 4 the text doesn't seem say against all devices simultaneously it specifically says on Page 178 "The other way to use Matrix Perception would be to analyze one particular icon or search for a hidden icon.This is also an Electronics + Intuition test and is opposed by the Willpower + Sleaze of the target." Also under Matrix perception action on Page 182 "A successful test gives you information about the target." both of these strongly point to perception being a singular thing and not something that is all hidden things in your view are found.

The only thing that potentially points otherwise would be the last paragraph of the Matrix perception action on Page 183, "This test can also be used to attempt to spot any icons in the vicinity that are running silent."

This with the previous comments seems to me to mean that you can select any icons as the target of your perception and not the any and all icons are the target of your perception.

Basically if I don't see an icon of the gun I could do a matrix perception looking for the hidden icon for the gun so I can hack it, but not that the GM now has to roll an opposed test for every hidden icon in their immediate area.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <04-05-20/2027:33> »
...
I do have access to all editions of the game and have played for quite a while but i was wanting to know how 6th edition deals with a device that doesn't have a listing or attribute and the text seems pretty clear that they have a 0 attribute if it is not listed...

The short answer is "GM fiat determines the Device Rating".  Other than the size of Condition Monitors.. Device Rating doesn't really mean anything anymore.  My guess is that's why no space was devoted to legislating Device Ratings for non-comms gear.

Quote
I am not sure I agree with your answer to number 4 the text doesn't seem say against all devices simultaneously it specifically says on Page 178 "The other way to use Matrix Perception would be to analyze one particular icon or search for a hidden icon.This is also an Electronics + Intuition test and is opposed by the Willpower + Sleaze of the target." Also under Matrix perception action on Page 182 "A successful test gives you information about the target." both of these strongly point to perception being a singular thing and not something that is all hidden things in your view are found.

Searching for hidden icon(s) is a different test than analyzing a spotted icon.  What that is saying is that you don't both analyze for info AND spot on a single roll.
Yes, it'd be less ambiguous if it said "search for any hidden icons in the hacker's vicinity."  However, that IS, basically, what it already says on page 183, as you noted already. 


Quote
This with the previous comments seems to me to mean that you can select any icons as the target of your perception and not the any and all icons are the target of your perception.

Basically if I don't see an icon of the gun I could do a matrix perception looking for the hidden icon for the gun so I can hack it, but not that the GM now has to roll an opposed test for every hidden icon in their immediate area.

Well note that you don't roll per device per se.  The writer's intent is if you spot a silent running PAN, you spot the whole PAN.  Just roll once and it covers every device in that PAN. 

The TL;DR here is there is no such thing as the "dozens of silent running stealth tags defense" versus your silent running stuff being spotted.  (not that that defense was sound in 5e anyway, as of Data Trails...)  Matrix Perception isn't supposed to frag the hacker over on action economy.  One Perception roll spots (or fails to spot) ALL the silent running stuff.
« Last Edit: <04-05-20/2030:17> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #10 on: <04-05-20/2039:31> »
The TL;DR here is there is no such thing as the "dozens of silent running stealth tags defense" versus your silent running stuff being spotted.  (not that that defense was sound in 5e anyway, as of Data Trails...)  Matrix Perception isn't supposed to frag the hacker over on action economy.  One Perception roll spots (or fails to spot) ALL the silent running stuff.

Yes I was not trying to gain the random icon rulings from 5th, I was just stating that I think it is a minor action per icon that is hidden that you want to spot. you can say specifically what icon that is whether it be the PAN or a host or the cameras or what not. I just don't think it is every hidden icon in your spotting range, if spotting range is still a thing.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <04-05-20/2101:33> »
The TL;DR here is there is no such thing as the "dozens of silent running stealth tags defense" versus your silent running stuff being spotted.  (not that that defense was sound in 5e anyway, as of Data Trails...)  Matrix Perception isn't supposed to frag the hacker over on action economy.  One Perception roll spots (or fails to spot) ALL the silent running stuff.

Yes I was not trying to gain the random icon rulings from 5th, I was just stating that I think it is a minor action per icon that is hidden that you want to spot. you can say specifically what icon that is whether it be the PAN or a host or the cameras or what not. I just don't think it is every hidden icon in your spotting range, if spotting range is still a thing.

Once a FAQ gets published, I'd hazard a guess that it's going to say "one check for however many hidden icons".  Naturally, until then it's pick the opinion you like better.

As for spotting distances... no, there's no firm value like in 5e.  It's GM discretion now.
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #12 on: <04-05-20/2108:41> »
ah, I see, thanks SSDR, it is very helpful as always.
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Banshee

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« Reply #13 on: <04-05-20/2130:42> »
Just a quick chime in .. SSDR has it right. I obviously didn't get that stuff written as clearly as I wanted and could have used another round of review.
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Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: <04-06-20/0341:13> »
Hi
Hello there, again ;-)



1. Hacking devices within hosts

Does that "interaction" imply that a hacker has automatically have access to that device, if he successfully hacked a host?
It mean that before you are allowed to take the Control Device action or the Change Icon action etc you need to gain User access on the network the device is connected to and before you are allowed to take the Reboot Device action or the Format Device action etc you need to gain Admin access on the network the device is connected to.

You only need to gain User or Admin access on the network the device is connected to, once.

You don't take another test in order to gain User or Admin access on individual devices within the network a second time. Once you have User or Admin access you are no longer considered 'outside'. Once you have some level of access on this network you also have the same level of access on all devices connected to this network.



2.) Hacking devices within a PAN:

Does "first" mean, that a hacker has to do a "second" hack (bruteforce/backdoor) to grant access to a slaved device within an PAN?
It means that in order to take actions that require User or Admin access on a device connected to a network you first need to gain User or Admin access, once, on the network.

It does not mean that you need to take a second second Brute Force / Probe+Backdoor Entry test on each individual device.



In addition, the German version of the core rulebook says something interesting about device rating that is not part of the original rules. Maybe it will be added later one?
I was  bit surprised when you mentioned this the first time over at reddit. This is how it used to work in the 5th edition, but this got deliberately changed for the 6E (both firewall and data processing values of commlinks have been explicitly lowered compared to 5th edition to reflect that devices normally have a firewall or processing rating of 0 in this edition).

The most likely scenario here is that it seem as if the translator (German Pegasus) took some liberty when translating and, wrongly, reintroduced this rule to 6E while doing the German translation.

This will have the undesired side effects of making commlink defense would become weaker than almost all your other devices and as a result there would be no longer any point of slaving devices to your commlink at all. This goes against Rule as Intended by the author of the English version as well as Rules as Written in the the English version.



Basically if I don't see an icon of the gun I could do a matrix perception looking for the hidden icon for the gun so I can hack it, but not that the GM now has to roll an opposed test for every hidden icon in their immediate area.
In previous edition you had to take a matrix perception test to spot individual devices and if the individual device was running silent then the test was opposed but if not and within 100 meters then spotting was automatic. After that you also had to mark individual devices before you could control them.


In this edition matrix perception is always opposed, but in this edition all icons are also normally immediately obvious and does not require a test to be spotted at all (there is no 100 meter ´'limit' in this edition).

Also, in this edition you either run your entire network silent or you don't. If a network is trying to hide (silent running) then you need to take one opposed matrix perception test to spot the entire silent running network.

In this edition you no longer mark individual devices, in this edition you gain User or Admin access on the entire network (including all individual devices that are part of the network) just once.
« Last Edit: <04-06-20/0409:22> by Xenon »